Make it happen, Kruz. This is where it becomes a 'field fix' out there with the owners/dealerships making an idea come into its own.

Trust me Hub, I'm trying to find a solution.....if there is one.

Look at CAMman's post down the page about halfway, also another guy sounds off on the next page with same problems.

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118645&page=6

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/21/2013 @ 1:32 PM *

1) My clutch actually has different free play with the throttle open vs. closed. This is after the engine is completely warmed up and temperature stable - so that's not a temperature dependent variable. 2) With the engine off and the transmission in first gear and the clutch lever pulled in, rolling the bike forward or backward, the bike will roll a couple of inches and then lock up as if the clutch was not disengaged. A strong push will break it free and then the bike will roll unimpeded until the clutch lever is released and then pulled in again. Then it repeats the lock up thing again.

Almost sounds intentional but not with the other bikes not doing this. I'm going to go back and forth, see if something on your end pops up? So here I am with the clutch in, bike idles, I have the rollers of the clutch butted up against the release plate. I know the balls are not forced back into their slots knowing the clutch rotation and the balls are centrifugally up against the basket ready to go.

I might think my clutch outer would grow. I have no ring or strap around the fork arms of the clutch outer basket, correct? It's just one aluminum piece without steel strap near the pressure plate so the growing won't loosen the squeeze to the plate, nor grow the basket out.

My next growth of 6mm and then back to 3mm is plate torque/plate move/plates are being forced out as if more cable is growing loose. No wait. If my wheel hop was engaged or hanging up, I'd have clutch slip, i.e., the slipper clutch in action would begin cooking my plates and I'd hear more engine than bike matching that roll on.

Where would I find 6mm then lose 3mm? Slipper clutch engaging or partial engagement then back up in their channels waiting for slip?

So, bottom line, I want to change/teardown/inspect my torque limiter housing. I want to change my torque limiter spring to a new one. Oh look, an updated part number wink-wink! And no I did not look to see if there is a new spring number? I want more spring tension in my limiter. I want the hardest torque limiter spring so that stays separated from the clutch action.

So it's the slipper as some dealers are saying? OK, shouldn't that slipper be disengaged until you have enough back torque to ride the ramp? The sub-hub then pushes outboard on the pressure plate relieving spring tension on the stack and limited slip.

Slipper springs are stiff enough that you must have a pretty decent amount of back torque to open the trap door. Switch to positive torque, driving the back wheel and you're off the ramp and locked up solid.

If what you're saying is true, then the slipper springs are too light and just backing off the gas will initiate slip, like coasting to a stop.

OK, follow me here, you shut down the motor when you're on the slipper ramps, where is the pressure plate now? Pushed outboard ergo... extra freeplay at the perch. Pull the clutch lever in and it pops, where? Back down the ramps and freeplay decreases. Isn't that totally backwards from what we are experiencing here? Freeplay increases with the pop, extra clearance between the pusher and pressure plate is the only thing that would cause this.

That's why I discarded the idea of the slipper being the cause of the pop.

Also, if your on the ramp why would it have to cool down to release?

Not saying your wrong but I don't follow the logic.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/21/2013 @ 9:08 PM *

Another question, book calls for Molybdenum DiSulfide grease in two locations in the clutch compartment, on both end of the plate pusher, where it rides in the transmission shaft and in the fork and mushroom head of the clutch release mechanism. Isn't that stuff what causes clutch slip in wet clutches? It's the number one frictiin modifier in energy conserving oils and death to wet clutches. Am I being too anal here, too small an amount and not likely to be washed into the oil? Just thinking out loud here.

That moly is going on in tiny dabs. It's more a contact point where upon 'initial' start up, the oil will begin lubing the rest [of its life] in other words. That's a couple of eye drops of moly vs. 4.plus quarts of oil.

The logic is: Where would 3mm come from? The rollers act like a push rod from the back of the clutch outer. It breaks the clutch plates loose and that means this is the only area that would cause more mm. Has nothing to do with the snap noise. Though, this snap might be where you create the pop? In other words, create the pop. Set your hand on the clutch cover, look at the clutch lever arm or hold the arm and cause the snap or pop.

Did the arm cause a shock to the fingers like it snapped back in place? What would cause that snap back? We hanging up something in the back where the ramp setup is? Did we ratchet back the slipper clutch housing, watch 3mm leave the lever? Did you follow where 3mm would still be there cold? Once we pull the lever, something happens to the slipper, we went from 6 to 3 mil.

We on the same page about the slipper causing some 3mm gap somewhere? Spring tension sure is not going to add more and slip more? Clutch cover is not going to move out and cause the arm to gain more mm slack? Only movement of the whole pack is the slipper housing. I can move the slipper and cause lever to limp. I can pull the lever and create more mm. See the straight plain of the sliding back and forth?

Inspect the slipper housing. Make it catch. Look for a gall or something that may hang up, but not break loose the pack.

Hub, I just ordered the Brock's Performance heavy duty spring kit for drag racing, 25% more clamping force on the pack. Should feel like a man's clutch now at the lever instead of one finger affair.

I called their tech department and they said they saw no reason why the HD kit won't work without the slipper disable mod they sell for drag racers. I'm thinking it wil have some effect on the slipper, less slip possibly?

I didn't want to put this thing back together without trying something different but may not eliminate the pop, we'll see.

Why does KHI spec gasket sealant on one side of the cover gasket on install, crankcase Sid of the gasket only? It seems it should seal dry? Maybe to hold the gasket in place during assembly of the cover?

http://dragbikelive.com/news/8018/hot-off-the-press/brocks-performance-introduces-2011-kawasaki-zx10r-heavy-duty-valve-spring-kit/

If it's too manly, square the Brock and 2 the stock.
If it's sounds strange, run 3 Brocks 3 Stocks in a triangle.
It more sounds like front fork spring stagger adding a 10 and a 9: you get a 9.5 front end. See the theory?

There is no ramp click stopping the slipper from moving at a given point. My guess is pounds per square vs. wheel to engine ratio: the trans calling the slip. If we slip we are out of sync where the wheel chatters the crank pulses. That's all about spin input and what gear you are in(?)

Eliminate the slip, you need full pack contact and the only controller of the break of the plate is your lever. No matter the braking you do with the rear wheel in said gear, you do not have the luxury to have the slipper disengage the pack. It's locked like old style and wheel hop is back in vogue.

Think about it. Will the slipper follow you in on the pull? I think the centrifugal force is active waiting at the trap door? So springs and heat won't help the 'pop' override this using a stronger spring. Or will it?

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/22/2013 @ 11:59 AM *

Well, that 's what the dealer seems to think, a machine burr on the ramp or cam follower hanging up. Is it benign though, that's the question? In other words on the gas do I have lock up of the clutch, full pack pressure from the spring plate. I can live with the pop if it's just an annoyance but if I'm springing the trap door and slipping under drive....well that ain't too good! BTW, I think you're right, slipper mechanism is the only thing left I haven't looked at. I need air and an impact driver to get that hub nut off, no got!

What about the gasket sealant, why one side, case side only not on the clutch cover? I think the dry gasket seals both sides just fine. Sealant is the place holder to hold the gasket in position while the cover goes on?

If you get a chance, look at the cover assembly procedure in the book. It shows two arrows for sealant, maybe a little dab will do ya not the entire surface just two spots, that makes more sense?

"Some guys are reporting clutch slippage and burnt up fibers in as little as 1500 miles."

This problem you are having and problems like the one I quote above are not from putting in dry clutch plates at the factory. They might prematurely wear, yes, but your pads were not extremely worn even with the mileage you have from what I can see of the one. There must be another explanation for those problems. You would have to use some calipers and find out what the minimal thickness is to be serviceable to know for sure. It might be as simple as poorly made pads (doubtful). If you are out of warranty, try some Barnett Carbon Fiber plates. Yours may be at the point of wear that the clutch design is just not allowing for proper adjustment to take place anymore. It is hard to tell from just looking, but the wear does not appear excessive on yours. From the notorious problems you mention, my hunch would be that the clutch was poorly designed and just don't allow for much wear before it has problems exceeding its adjustability. I had some Barnett kevlar plates on an 1100 gixxer and they were great. The Carbon Fiber are the thing now. The pic quality was not great, but from what I see, you have probably not gotten the clutch too hot. Did any of the steel plates have a blue hue to them? That happens from a clutch getting too hot. If not, then you know that it is not likely to be a problem of running dry.

* Last updated by: dissidentdave on 5/24/2013 @ 9:19 PM *

Thanks for the input Dave, the plates mike at .1122, standard is .107 to .113 so they're almost new. Steels had no blueing, checked flat on a surface plate and I ran them by the dealer and had the service manager take a look, he said they looked great and to put them back in. I soaked the fibers in engine oil overnight and then dried them with a paper towel, look the same so my plates were oiled on assembly.

Hub has gone AWOL but I found the judder spring faces outboard between #1 and #2 steel from a Brock's video, 1, then flat spring seat then judder, then # 2.

The last fiber plate (outboard) is clocked one tang from the rest of the fibers, manual specifies this but no explanation given, anyone know why?

The question of the half circle cutouts in the tangs of the fiber plates came up but no explanation as to their purpose.

I figured out the sealant on the clutch cover, two dabs at 3 and 9 o'clock where the horizontal case seam runs under the gasket, the rest of the gasket is assembled dry.

Still haven't found the source of the pop and sudden increase in lever freeplay but it's been there since I brought it home and apparently is causing no harm. Hub may be right, slipper cams are probably hanging up.

This is all new to me, first time I've ever had a clutch act up and I'm on bike number 17 now.

I have no experience with a slipper clutch and have not heard of this particualr issue that you are dealing with. I would not worry about the popping itself, but if you cannot keep it adjusted, you need to keep looking further into the slipper components. That popping just may some by-product of the real problem. What makes no sense, as you mentioned earlier, is that the slipper should not even come into play just powering down the bike.

You are right, it takes a hard downshift to develop enough back torque to overcome the slipper springs and push the clutch hub cam follower up the ramps. Just coasting into the drive shouldn't do it. We'll see if the heavier clutch springs don't cure the issue. Other possibilities, the clutch pusher might be hanging up but in the picture you can see it appears wet with oil and no scoring. Clutch actuator shaft has some wear where it rides in the needle bearings in the clutch cover but the needles are free and were well oiled. This one has me scratching my head, to other guys are reporting the same issue on their '11s. No reports on the '12 and '13 models, design change maybe? I'm still thinking it was an assembly error, what would make a guy drive that clutch spring in after he knew he had cross threaded it? Those get only 97 lb-inch torque, maybe 9 N-Ms, almost nothing. The guy that assembled my clutch was a newbie.

I looked at a parts diagram of the 2011 ZX10 and it is a very similar setup to the old GSXR 750's. As I am thinking about how I would troubleshoot this, it occurs to me that the presenting problem is in the area of your cable connection and the clutch releac mechanism. Make sure that you inspect the actuator arm (aka "clutch comp release" part#13102-0041)that pivots in the housing does not show any signs of abnormal wear. I am wondering if something is just not right with the positioning of that arm. You should be able to set it at a different angle, if the gears are running out too far on you. If that part does not have teeth on it on the part that goes inside the housing (as old gixxers do), then there must be a cam or gear that transfers the leverage to physically move the clutch pressure plate in and out. I would be looking real hard at that mechanism.

* Last updated by: dissidentdave on 5/25/2013 @ 6:44 PM *

That was one of the first things I looked at, especially because one responder to my thread over on ZX-10R.net had reported a similar issue and said he had it repaired under warranty by the dealer replacing part of the "release mechanism". I tried to get him to tell me which part failed and he seemed to disappear from the forum, no response. I took some pictures yesterday of the release fork and actuator shaft due to some unusual wear patterns I am seeing in the shaft. There are some vertical grooves at the top where it passes through the upper needle bearing. I had considered changing out that part on a hunch but then thought....no, don't just start randomly changing out parts. I think I'll go ahead and order a new shaft, they're not that expensive and you can actually exchange it without removing the clutch cover, just rotate the lever CCW 90 degrees and it'll lift right outof the cover.

Now that I think of it, I remember noting a bit of "grittiness" in the lever down at the clutch cover when engine was hot that was not there when it was cold.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/26/2013 @ 7:20 AM *

OK, the GSXR uses a rack and pinion mechanism in the clutch cover to translate rotary torque into linear travel at the pressure plate. You can't see it in the drawings but this setup on the ZX-10R is a way cruder design. First thing I thought when I got it apart was, what 12 year old designed this? It's so simple though, it should work even though not an elegant design at all. Lot of friction in the system and the needle bearings are not the smoothest.

Crude as it looks??? They are pretty much that simple a move. The roller should hang up every time you pull it in just about. See what I'm saying about the lever on both sides? They are way too dependable and effortless. Only zip between those two ends is like I said, Kruz? Did we lube and slide the cable for bind on the free play? No needle or lever is attached to the cable ends? And that too says the cable if dry and hanging, still does not answer the hot/pop of the cable.

If we see old style without the slipper behind the baskets, we do not have that 3mm gap the slipper could make and more? And that means hot or cold has anyone ever complained about gap/snap, sans basket growth, so as to leave more gap at the perch for growth: if racing/robusting on the track/street.

Awolling away, you made the right moves to the sealer and gasket setting, Kruz. Speaking about that line of cush sealer on the one side could be for cover release? The other is using a sealer but soft is that bead around the paper as an extra-extra sealing so the customer complaint is addressed some? Same goes with the steel head gaskets with the black coating sprayed on it. Anything to stop the soaking thru like a good synthetic sweating thru the covers to case is closed.

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/27/2013 @ 12:44 PM *

Hub, you're alive! I thought you'd gone MIA and was about to send the popo out looking for you. Nevertheless,no breakthrough on the cold pop, 3mm cable release. It's definitely not the cable, the sound is mechanical and comes from under the clutch cover. Still waiting on the parts to get here, will then button it back up and go ride and see. I'm not going back in there until someone (dealer warranty maybe) figures it out. I can't afford to just start replacing everything under the cover shot gun style. What about the judder spring? Brock's video says cone facing out, he 's very adamant about that so maybe it's important? Looking at wear from the judder on plate #2 the judder may have been installed facing inboard, cone pointing towards engine. Could an incorrect judder orientation create a pop as it releases? I can't see how, it's a simple Bellville washer.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/27/2013 @ 2:08 PM *

Had me a large 'honey do list' that took my time away. I am looking at what the book shows. I haven't seen the vid, but it sounds like what you are describing is what I am describing, if we both see how the cone or wave washer has a smaller diameter that shows who faces where? So the larger [beveled] side faces you is one. Place the flat or cut side facing the case. The flat washer has memory under stress and goes static when not, right? Think of it like a pushup is your palms flat to push that weight out. The larger bevel has memory and think of that as both a cushion coming in and a pushing out of the plate for release off the other plate behind it.

And no, I don't think there is anything to do with 3mm worth of spring action of that wave plate being involved. I think if there was no pressure on the plate it would be as if not in at all. Unless you noticed it being backwards? Let me go find that wave plate vid.

See if both Brock and I are saying the same thing? I'm going to use his abstract. Say we have a cone's tip? "Face the tip into the engine case." That's what I'm saying so the larger end faces you.

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/27/2013 @ 3:47 PM *

Either I am misundertanding Hub, or he is not correct on the position of the spring. I have watched this video 3 times and read the manual on this issue about that many. Let's clarify terms. If you lay the spring flat and the high side is the narrower with the bottom side being the wider, then it is the narrow "high" side that faces AWAY from the engine case. Look at how Brock is pointing his finger and the terms he uses as he is referring to the spring going up to a point. He states,"It has a conical face on it, that if it continued up to that point- that point would face away from the engine." Also check the service manual. It explodes the view and illustrates that the high point faces out. Hey Kruz just trying to save you some pain. Your clutch pack setup is almost identical to my old GSXR 1100 stock clutch pack setup. I put a Barnett Kevlar clutch in that bike that completely eliminated the judder and spring base. These Japanese companies really do copycat each other!

Dave, I watched that video three times and agree, installed the cone facing outboard, can't see how it would matter, a spring is a spring but I'm taking no chances. Any bets on whether the pop is still there when she goes back together? One thing, the 3mm is travel at the clutch lever tip on the clutch cover, that's releasing that much in cable slack, that arm on the clutch cover has about a 15 to 1 mechanical advantage so the pop is only about .20mm, that's right around .008 inch, not a lot but enough to cause the noise.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/28/2013 @ 6:59 AM *