If you look in the book see how the cone's tip would face the engine and the big part is pushing on a plate? Brock throws in a steel plate. why would I want a cone to face away from the engine? Am I not throwing pressure at the first steel plate to be pushed at or touched wide is the circumference around the plate is largest opening of the cone?

He states,"It has a conical face on it, that if it continued up to that point- that point would face away from the engine."

The point is now facing the first steel plate, yes or no? Yes. Brock says to reverse what the book shows.

How about this if the hubbish is that bad in ring directions?

If I had a paper plate as the cut off cone or the taper of the conical, I want the eating side to face the steel plate, the table side to face the engine case. That's my edit cut and I'm sticking withatable manors.

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pg. 6-16 See how / face to the pressure plate? or what they call the spring plate? That says to me is the widest side faces the highest part of the plate. If I reverse that, here is \ how the narrow fits under the steel plate. I rest my springs... I mean case.

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At first I thought that Brock was opposite the book, but then realized that my perspective on the orientation of the clutch basket diagram was wrong. Brock is stating the correct way to do it according to the manual. Both say the high (smaller) end faces out, as I stated before.

Quote from Hub: "why would I want a cone to face away from the engine?"

Hub, there is nothing to rationalize or debate about here. I am just going by the book. Generally, I assume the engineers that design these things know something I don't. But, occassionally, I think they do some jacked up stuff too!

* Last updated by: dissidentdave on 5/27/2013 @ 10:18 PM *

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Yes 6-16. I am looking at the same thing you are. Look closely. In the exploded view (the cross-sectional view), the inner part of the ring is the high part and it faces to the right, which is away from the engine of the bike. Therefore, the "cone" faces outward. The "judder" spring and washer are just like the old GSXR 1100's, which i am quite familiar with and that was what made me question the way this fit. It caught my attention, because I wondered if they reversed the way it is done on Kawi's. They do not. It is the same as the old gixxers.

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Look at the engine and how the cone is positioned. See how the widest hits the back of the steel plate?

Look at if Brock says to send the tip away from the case? Go read his quote again.

See how page shows how the cone has to sit on the plate. We see the |/| highest part hitting the plate page 6 dash for cash? See what I see or how I read the manual and explain why that cone is going to enter at the bottom or into the plate, not how I keep repeating the same thing over is hubbishithengineering all up too?

We on the same page yet? Believe your eyes now or how else can I explain the theory?

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Kruz: Any bets on whether the pop is still there when she goes back together?

Well, say they had the clutch packer install the tip of cone of the spring washer toward the inside. Do you remember how it was positioned on it being removed? Could it hang up inside the grooves of the teeth and lock? See any bite marks? Digital cameras pick up a lot the naked eye can't see.

dave: there is nothing to rationalize or debate about here

Parts are assembled one way and they have a reason or engines blow up, won't last long, etc. You guys put your parts together your way and I have the book so I have common sense to back some of the book's theory so they are more valid than me reading/seeing something on the net.

Just gotta weed out what the weed out is all.

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Hub, with all due respect, I understand Brock clearly and he is saying if the Bellville spring had an imaginary cone tip it would face outboard, away from the engine.

I studied that drawing in the manual that shows the Bellville spring and at first I thought it was pointing in like you say but after looking up a standard engineering cross sectional drawing of a Bellville it is apparent that indeed the cone faces outboard just like Brock says in the video and Dave is saying.

What had got me wondering, #2 steel shows a wear pattern suspiciously like the factory reversed the spring and had it facing cone inboard towards the engine. This places the wide base of the spring against #2 steel and that was the way the wear pattern matched up.

You guys apparently have a copy of the manual, look at 6-16 installation drawing of the Bellville and then look at the picture below and tell me which way do you think they intended for the spring to point? I say small side outboard, wide base inboard.

Secondary question now that we are on this subject of small details making big differences, does it make any difference which way the spring seat is installed? We know the spring seat goes against #1 steel, then Bellville, then #2 steel but the book does not specify which direction the spring seat is oriented. The spring seat has a side with a rolled lip from stamping and a flat side, just like a stamped out washer or steel clutch plate, same thing. Does it matter if it's not in the book?

The reason I bring this up, everyone I've discussed it with says to orient steel plates with the smooth side facing in towards the engine and the flat side outboard. It's not specified in the book but everyone seems to beleive that is common practice.

This stuff is giving me a headache ......lol!

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Hub I just showed that 6-16 drawing to one of our mechanical design draftsmen in the engineering department and he agreed with Dave and I on this, the cone of the Bellville is clearly intended to face outboard.

The smooth lip on that spring seat should not make any difference, probably why Kawasaki does not mention it or even show this feature in the drawing.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/28/2013 @ 7:59 AM *

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Look at the Bellville spring in this parts breakdown Hubster, item #92144, looks to me like the drawing confirms the point of the spring points away from the engine.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/28/2013 @ 8:10 AM *

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Here's the lever Hubmeister, look at the high wear on the shaft after only 4000 miles. Only a little spray lube on that needle bearing but they shouldn't need much.

Wear on the "fork" that engages mushroom head of the clutch pushrod has a little wear, I expected this to be smooth where it spins on the pusher head but it looks a little rougn, hard to see in this picture.

You can see that this lever design has inherently a very high mechanical advantage built in.

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This is the end of the lever that engages the pusher head, I call it the "fork". Crap iPhone quality pic but it is not really smooth and polished surface like I expected.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/28/2013 @ 8:26 AM *

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I can see that parts photo showing the cone facing in, the funnel opening facing out. I am looking at page 6-2. Study both parts page and above and book page I just mentioned and see if both are not facing in the opposite direction? Then look at how >>> Faces away from the case [|/] is that right angle is now look at page 6-15 and 6-16 being consistent and the parts page against the blowout not. See how I could make a mistake if plate bang is at the bottom not the top?

If say I've been away from the parts too long, I may be wrong. Would I want to kick the plate at the face or lower at the grooves? So the only way of knowing is for me to head over to some shop and oh look it is that direction and all that. So if you see wear and can tell who is rubbing against whom, then I have it wrong. Reassemble as you found it. I'm sticking with what I see and how I aim the cone and funnel opening on a plate pg. 6-2 vs. the parts page.

Here, let me confuse you with more. See that shaft wear? That is like a pin on a chain. See the 1/2 way yank around or are we just 90° to the stops of that thrust side? Like you said and I'll paraphrase, "it's pleasantly being worn out" is all she is doing is what I am saying. I see no hangup there or at the other end. Same old "bulletproof" design I used to service decades ago. And my own quote is that ancient too.

Keep thinking that spring is going help and I don't know? That R vs. me shifting? It's like you ate off of roach coach and have the burps it ramps up your throat and you are gagging on the clutch plates with just about every downshift change: in performance mode that is.

I'm feeling that ramp system a lot. No complaints here. I got used to a liquid lever, I'll figure out ramp-go-away, break away from the old style shifting habits is start finding that idiosyncrasy.

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/28/2013 @ 9:12 AM *

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trdtuner7
Champion Rider


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My dealer is pretty good with stuff like this. They may fix it to keep you happy as a customer. I would give it a shot. It could be like my 2011 and the piece that actually pulls the clutch hub was F'd up pretty badly causing my clutch to slip.

Well, this guy posted on my thread but I don't see the damage he's talking about on mine, there is nothing really obvious here, it's subtle. I'll go with your assessment here, the actuator assembly is a little worn but OK.

No, I doubt the judder spring was the problem, just double checking everything as we already know a trainee assembled my clutch i.e. witness stripped out spring screw. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, what else did he do is all I'm saying? KHI's On-the-job-training program = Major Headaches...for me.

I'm back to the ramps Hub, something hanging hot then releasing. If I had air here at the house and a pnuematic impact wrench I'd have that hub off in a jiffy and a take a peak at those ramps and followers.

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Well, the Brocks Performance spring set arrived last night and the rest of the parts are scheduled for delivery on Thursday, so hopefully I get to button this thing back up on Saturday morning.

Hub, these Brocks are some stiff muthah springs, should I go for all six or 3 of each, sort of mix and match? I ordered a set of stock springs also so I can get the lever pull where I want it.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the heavier springs help the situation or that other corrective action I've taken may help..... the shotgun approach.

So here's the list:

1.) Installed Brocks Heavy Duty Racing Clutch Springs, 25% stiffer than OEM.
2.) Lubed clutch pushrod on both ends with Molybdenum-Disulfide grease, both ends looked pretty dry before.
3.) Replaced stripped clutch spring screw and stud.
4.) Corrected Judder spring installed backwards....possibly. Jury is stillout on the original direction, I'm going by
the wear marks on #2 steel.
5.) Fiber plates soaked in oil overnight, were dry before.

I'm not holding my breath here Hub, I still think you're right that the problem is in the slipper cams hanging up somewhere.

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should I go for all six or 3 of each, sort of mix and match?... so I can get the lever pull where I want it.

All Brock = Arm pump in heavy traffic. Race only.
4 Brock = The rest stock. Pretty heavy load trying to knock out the 3mm.
3 Brock = The happy medium. Triangle is more the street test, keep it together, I know what 4 Brocks feel like. 6 are way to much just to judder the stutter out of the 3mm.

And that means lots of cover on and off testing. I'd at least use a cross 4 cover bolt pattern and the first bolt is right at that arm so the thrust is addressed there; 6-3-9 o'clock the rest is just a lever pull test. And for sure, you have all Brock, watch the cover buckle before a full pull. That says more bolts to unbuckle the cover against all that spring tension.

Because you are going to be sitting there pulling and pulling to cause arm pump. That's the lever you are going to live with so you arm pump it to death and ask yourself where is my comfort zone with those 3 combinations: juggling springs?

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Link to 2011 ZX-10R Race Kit, lots more on slipper clutch setup:

http://garth285.com/manuals/2011%20ZX-10r%20Race%20Kit%20Manual.pdf

And for sure, you have all Brock, watch the cover buckle before a full pull.

Six Brock springs will buckle the OEM clutch cover? I've heard of guys running four of the the next heavier springs than I have on their ZX-10R, Brocks Ultra Heavy Duty springs and mixing in two GSXR 1000 valve springs and seats to get a mega pull for drag racing lockup and never heard of a buckled cover.

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No, no, Kruz, I am saying I am going to use 4 cover bolts in an X pattern and only 4 bolts to hold the cover. Because I am going to run heavy springs with less bolts and I do not want to stress what I'm doing is loopholing so many times is off and on is the cover. I am saving time by using less bolts.

All I'm going to do is find how much tension I want by using those 3 combinations. Did that make sense?

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Race kit has optional 6mm and 7mm clutch spring top hat retainers(8mm standard)to adjust pack pressure, also 1mm shims for fine tuning placed below the top hats. This may have been the way to go as it would allow more precise tuning of pack pressure (and lever pull) then the Brocks which is like overkill for street I would think.

One thing for sure, increasing the spring pressure on the pack has to effect slipper activation, as in more back torque to induce a given amount of slip. To ride up the slipper ramps you have to overcome the combined force of both the clutch pack springs and slipper leaf springs to lift that pressure plate off the stack and slip. Do you concur?

I don't think Brock ever tested his spring kit without the slipper deactivated. Read his tech talk on the spring kit at his website, "must be used with clutch mod" blah blah blah. Then when you call his tech support they're like "oh yea, it will work fine with the slipper", will this be MasterCard or Visa"?

Can you spell "Guinea Pig" Hub, all this chasing factory 3mm?

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No, no, Kruz, I am saying I am going to use 4 cover bolts in an X pattern and only 4 bolts to hold the cover. Because I am going to run heavy springs with less bolts and I do not want to stress what I'm doing is loopholing so many times is off and on is the cover. I am saving time by using less bolts.

All I'm going to do is find how much tension I want by using those 3 combinations. Did that make sense?

Got it now Hub!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/29/2013 @ 12:51 PM *

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Three of each sounds like a good compromise between forearm pump and clamp force.

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Good explanation of how the slipper works and what problems can occur, they talk about ramp jamming up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onLKpNj4U4Y

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One thing for sure, increasing the spring pressure on the pack has to effect slipper activation, as in more back torque to induce a given amount of slip. To ride up the slipper ramps you have to overcome the combined force of both the clutch pack springs and slipper leaf springs to lift that pressure plate off the stack and slip. Do you concur?

Yes and if you think reversengineering; Look at how you can play with all 3 packs:

1. I can slipper wave springs as in remove one; smooth one, move one [bend] down is less dial to induce a faster ramp up.
2. I can unpack the pack of the plates, or where max is all she wrote: or thin a plate thickness.
3. I can jack up the pressure plate springs with said combo tries where I can keep the pack from slipping, keep the ramp from lifting. No matter WOT, I still can override the ramp being it's all there and it's just tension messing around with.

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The ramp style off the pressure plate is one more slipper design. His will hammer the clutch center and clutch outer 'tang tunnels' call it just like the moving clutch center. It's still in that: for every action there is the opposite bang to the tang and tunnel.

And their term is a 'spider washer.' The R has 4. All you need is the equal thickness washer to replace the spider washer with and the test is on.

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Yep, that's the theory behind Brock's clutch mod, replace the spider springs with a thick steel spacer, that'll be $99 please!

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Oh but did you see the blowout with the circle around and it's on page 30 of the kit-ecu download? I sea wear, it looks like if we... say the funnel is the widest side and the cone is that stepping down to the narrowest point. I see funnel opening to the right angle and it funnels down into a point and points into the engine case and now case is closed on that move. It's to the point where if you can't see the line's angle(s) IS why I began working on bikes. My favorite line some line hacker [I used to envy but not really] was his speed and hardly any comebacks to my ratio of bikes on the rack... "Ain't My Bike" was his words. I was more involved with the whole setup and what experiment I was trying on a customer's bike. If it didn't come back I knew it would work again on another bike and so on.

Oh and did you see the racing 'judder' with the rivets? 'Only used for start up?' You gotta be kidding me. Whaaaaa, my bike makes funny noise is it sounds like a jutter or judder or flutter or can you fix my complaint? Sure! And he used to take a hammer and hit the bike as if you could find where he banged it, saying 'funny noise'is' you had to be there.

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