Alex, I'll take 'field fix in the lets see what happens next' for $99 please. So for a lot less or maybe you save a gas tank full for that running around for precision "machine washers," not fender/hanger washers out of face is the place. It has to face flat or the mainshaft bolt walks out, and more important is the metal to metal lubing being compatible and all that. This is so the ramp sits closed, the balls are out in left field somewhere you tossed that idea. Oh wait, it's the pull arm after all.

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/29/2013 @ 7:30 PM *

At this point Hub, I don't know where the 3mm is coming from, neither do you, it's anyones's guess. I thought we put that Judder spring orientation issue to bed though, cone faces out just like in the Brock vid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgmIMallIl8
Hub watch this video, at 2:45 and 3:06 to 3:10, watch how he installs the judder and listen to what he says very carefully.

What's up with them racing judders, what do they mean "startup" and 40%.... 60% ...of what? This manual was written by someone who spoke English as a second language, that is pretty obvious. Hub I can understand what you're saying better than I can understand what these guys are saying ...lol!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/30/2013 @ 7:50 AM *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erytBVfF378

I'm standard 2.6mm wide. I seem to judder stock. I need more push against the Brockstocks so I am going to go up 40% on the thickness. That color is I can't tell, so I'm going to squeeze both 'wave plates' in a vice and see who is thicker by percentage? I don't have a vice. I'm going to check distance from A<-to->A is my spring tension change is less tension is wide, narrow A is more tension.

And if I had parts in hand we'd put this to bed. But book savvy and me looking at the circle-K is you lay the sheets down on your bed and I lay mine on a... And never the judder shall meet.

I'm mother teapot short and sweet. You are looking at a customer complaint design and if you pulled the clutch in there'd be no chatter/judder/less parts is me. Home he does not need a flat ring and cone direction wave washer in his basket. That's a squid ring for the lever outs. Home he has no 1st gear clunk if the clutch is in, gear is in: for start up.

@ 3:09 stop the vid. Watch carefully how the wave lands on the clutch center. On race page 31, show me if that wave is positioned over the clutch center channels and at what angle is the ring vs. page 31 in the C-ircle window blowup and how it entered first vs. 3:09.

Hub, puhleeeeeeze, that cone faces out period, the assembly drawing shows it, the IPC shows it, Brock shows it in his video and the guys on ZX10R.net confirm the cone of the judder faces out.

PULLllllllllleeeeeze lets get away from the ring but not really. Lets study the large circle and learn how to read the shop manual. The manual says look at my circle [head on] this way.

1. My basket is the large one to the left.
2. My spring cover or pressure plate is to the right.
3. My circle says I see they took the same icon / is this side. If I typed the other icon this way \ I would see /\ 'Cone facing out.'

Are we on the same page now? If say the round side is hitting plate, the sharp side hitting the flat washer that's the side I want, not the edge of the funnel side hitting the steel plate. In theory that is. You're looking for 3mm and I'm thinking is this just a few bikes doing this and where is their judder positioned? See where I'm going.

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/30/2013 @ 1:14 PM *

Now, take your two ? ? right and left angles on page 6-16 of the 14 book, 6-18 on the R book. Take both / of those angles and are they, or do they look like they are making a cone [you interject those lines] and are they in the direction of the case and is the cone side in the opposite direction say yes or no?

My reality and your line of site interjection is me giving some indigestion. See my using both my eyes right now and looking at that X to Y is Z pointing into the case IS?

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/30/2013 @ 1:13 PM *

Well...what I see...is the 'spring' facing INWARD...the cone that is.In the pic on 6-2...I'm reading it as the bottom set of parts is pointing to the slave side,then the middle set goes into that set,then the third parts set(the springs,cover and pushrod are going onto the middle set.So that would make the 'cone' going INTO the case,not outward.

The picture of the 'spring' has a thinning line as it goes upwards to the 'left'(clockwise)..that indicates an angle...which is 'inward'...the cone pointing inward.Otherwise,the 'thickness' of the part would be as the 'washer' it's sitting on(which denotes a flat surface).I can't tell if the spring actually ends up sitting 'inside' that washer..but if it doesn't,there's your 3mm...????

That vid shows Brock installing that spring on top of the 'thicker' washer ring...your 10R has the STOCK washer ring...so maybe the 'new' configuration with that washer in there IS the spring coneing('reversed') outward.But not as stock shows it.

I know...go and sit down...

Why do I get the odd feeling that this was only a test?Hub's got it right...the cone faces inward...Brock's is a mod...it could work that way with his parts.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/30/2013 @ 3:24 PM *

Grn, look at this picture below, look at how the spring is oriented, now compare this to the drawing of the '11 ZX-10R clutch cross section on page 6-16 of the manual. if you don 't have the link, I'll post it. The drawing shows the minor diameter on the side away from the engine just like Brock says to do in his video. Did you watch the video clip, he says it loud and clear , tip of the imaginary cone pointing towards you?

I know...go and sit down...

Grn, look at this link to the service manual, fig 6-16 cross section of clutch. Judder leans / , now look at the standard cross section view of a Bellville washer in the drawing above. Which end has the small, minor diameter? Why would Brock tell you to install the spring facing out in the video? That makes no sense for him to reverse the judder spring.

http://garth285.com/manuals/2011%20ZX-10r%20service%20manual.pdf

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/30/2013 @ 4:39 PM *

What had got me wondering, #2 steel shows a wear pattern suspiciously like the factory reversed the spring and had it facing cone inboard towards the engine. This places the wide base of the spring against #2 steel and that was the way the wear pattern matched up.

I took this off the 10R site. Read what he has to say.

Hole eeeeeeeeee smokes, I guess I had to read that guy again? And it was serendipity don't you know?

Ok, you guys got it right, that spring is pointing in towards the engine. So Brock either has it wrong in his video or there is a reason he has reversed the spring with his clutch cushion mod.

Kruz...the 'cone' shape of the imaginary lines are heading to a point inward..not out.The angle is going inward...not out.That pic there is of the bellville,not the spring/washer deal.I saw that...that's not the part.Look at the zx14 clutch diagram on 6-2...the spring is clearly shown(the angle part).Compare the 'drawing' of that 'spring' to the washer it sits against.See the difference in 'thicknesses' of the two pieces?Look close...one(the washer)is showing a consistant width of the ring all the way around.Now look at the 'spring"..see the narrowing as it passes the 6 o'clock and is drawn around to the 9 o'clock.That thin area right there is the inward angle making it appear 'thinner'.That's what that is....if you didn't know what it was...you might think it was a lousy drawing...it's like the two spacers for the rear axle pic...they look ALMOST identical...but as they're drawn on an angle...they show a third dimension to the depth of the 'barrel"...the one is shorter than the other and the flange is 'bigger' on the one.They couldn't show that spring angle if they had a two dimensional diagram...see that?'Cone tip' is pointing inward.On the stock configuration.

"Why would Brock tell you to install the spring facing out in the video? That makes no sense for him to reverse the judder spring"...well...I can only guess that his WASHER is shaped somewhat 'thicker' or something...and maybe that makes a difference on that spring orientation...IDK...You don't suppose he just messed up maybe?...He's definitely got a reason for doing it like that.Isn't his washer made 'thicker' than the stock one?I thought it looked like that....????He said something about the lip?and the flat side.IDK.I didn't watch it again.I will.

That 'h' in that drawing there..that's probably a 3 mm depth(on the zx10R spring)...weren't you wondering about the depth or something?If Brock's was thicker(the washer)...that 'depth' would effectively be less...seein how it would be being forced against the part there even more.

I just watched it again..he installs that large silver washer..it's thicker..and then installs the washer and judder ring...but he had it reversed when he showed us how the angle was...did you catch that?I mean..he was holding it correctly...with the point going inward(following his finger),but then he turned it 'over' as he said "the point goes outward away from the engine' or whatever it was.He mentioned the imaginary cone deal(how it would point outward)...but the ring was NOT turned that way...see that?He messed up I think...watch when he holds the judder ring...then points with his finger as he describes the 'point'...see how the ring angle(the ID) is facing OUTWARD(down as it is in his hand) there?That's NOT how it was stock.It was facing INward,and he turned the ring as he went to reinstall.Almost a 'sleight of hand' deal it looked like to me.IDK why he oriented them like that as he explained the cone...with the two parts right next to each other like he had em.

He does remove that one ring...to make room for the 'mod'...3mm?

Hub quoted the zx10 guy..."What had got me wondering, #2 steel shows a wear pattern suspiciously like the factory reversed the spring and had it facing cone inboard towards the engine. This places the wide base of the spring against #2 steel and that was the way the wear pattern matched up"...well...yeah...it's supposed to face inward...IDK WHAT that guy was seeing...saying it was not installed correctly.It was.And yeah...there WILL be a bit of wear marking with it like that...normal.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/30/2013 @ 5:33 PM *

Yea, I watched that. What pisses me off is I assembled the clutch with the judder cone facing inward, based on what I remembered as I took it apart and matching wear patterns on the steel plates. Then saw the Brocks video and questioned it on ZX-10R.net. Local "drag racing expert" says no, I got it wrong, Brock is right, cone faces outboard. So I tore it back down and reversed it. Now I have to tear it back down for the third time to reverse it back to the way I had it the first time.
This bike is starting to wear very thin on me, I have had nothing but problems with this clutch since I brought it home.

Yes, I watched that video several times, his hand signals and words don't match, I think he screwed up. I think the cone was originally facing in on that bike and he changed it.

Yep...me too.He picked em straight outta that clutch pack,as we saw...and had em together there,then turned the spring around as he mentioned how they 'go back in'.Hang in there Kruzerman...it'll be fine...you'll see.

They SHOULD have shown an "after' video of the whole deal working...the lever and all.I bet that friggin thing didn't work right....they probably had to do it all over again tooLOL!!!!I can just see one of those guys tellin the 'boss'..."uhm...Brock,ummm...can we talk for sec?"Nobody probably said shit about it;)

Course,there IS the real possibility that it DOES go the way he said....with HIS mod in there...the factory diagram shows it KAWI's way.

Tell ya one thing..after all this...you can bet if I ever have to replace mine...I won't be gettin it wrong!LOL!!!Thanks to you two;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/30/2013 @ 5:49 PM *

I'm not listening to [is take that no from use is novices], nor watching video moves and my eyes light up as much as watching someone take a line is take a wrenchisaida 'best can be beaten' is Brock is not running book, but no clutch has let loose is like saying here is a spring so I'm going to turn it upside down is look at the front forks of today and yesterday and all the hanger change was reverse the oil flow holes.

So will you find 3mm at the spring? Not if I just guess at design, then I am back to rampee damp'inn dumping the 3mm off at the bus stop and on schedule is the hotea molly come sportime.

As you watch watt the pencil mime with makeup does, you be watching the X my Y line/14 Nation/ stepping back down is close the spider door behind me: and trap the next abstract.

See me looking for a pit crewitheyes? Grn's got potential. And yes, Brock sort of got it... Tell you watt. I'll let your eyes tell you is the story about Book vs. Brock.

I have nothing to do [withis] I'm just the messenger.

Kruz, leave it. This way you see if either flip makes a difference. Like I said, flipped either way is like flipping the pack in either direction. It's been done by mistake or deliberately. You field fixer you, this is like being a pro. Go ask Brock how many times he's pulled plates out in one race meet and I mean it rolls off the trailer and how many tune up days they give you? How many rounds to win? 15 pull my plate don't be late at the light fandango on the 16th one is for all the inspection downs? That's not counting the other 2 days or whatever a meet starts and [ends]?

(((Molly!!))) Bus is coming!

Yup...I saw that in the book...but what threw me off was the friction plates AFTER the spring.(the inboard ones).I didn't realize that the spring actually was out some from the clutch basket.In Brock's vid...he did remove that one plate,and then he reached in and grabbed those two parts and pulled em out.That's why I didn't 'see' that clear pic on page 6-16 of the steels and plates and spring/washer.Definitely see it now.Yup.Can't possibly get that wrong.If ya know what yer lookin at;)

OK, I got it wrong, so cone points in, no harm no foul, I'll fix it. Drag boy just emailed me he orients Brocks way, cone out and never has an issue.

This is the least of my worries, online Kawasaki parts house I ordered the new parts from emailed me this afternoon that they may have only shipped half my parts cause they still have a bunch on the counter. Then he emails again that they always double check before shipping so inventory the parts on arrival this evening and see if I'm short. It gets worse, they had the wrong address in their computer and UPS delivered to wrong address. I have no idea where they went. This nightmare never ends! Grn, do you get the idea someone hates me? To be continued.

Nice video Hub!

Dave: Hub, there is nothing to rationalize or debate about here. I am just going by the book.

Dave? I sort of have to reverse the engineering so my reality is not in line with the rest of the world. Like you didn't know? I have no clue [of that book] but figuring out abstract and drawings like you. NOLTT and I'm more tapping one on the shoulder and saying, "I want the best under you so I can make sure there was no excuse is called, 'Racingamaexcusesays The Loser..." on a perfectly assembled bike.

When the parts are in line with the stars... You're up at the line... It's your cntrhub againsthearthlingsetup.

Kruz, it was a pleasure. You keep that fleet all sweet you come get a second opinion and keepee'inn shit outta those. Becauseye pee scenthe book in reverse IS verse IS. [I'm riding assbackasswords: icon]

So you have test cone out, test cone in. I'm all ears till then. Because I sure do not know what it is? Hold on, let me look in the index... Nada.

No Kruz...I don't think 'someone' hates you;)Well...maybe one does...but he hates everyonelol!!!

Hub once again proves he's the Jedi Master of walkin the tech mode in the abstract...

Heavy Duty Brock Springs