Another problem for the master tech. This time the 10R, something wrong with my clutch with only 4000 miles on the clock. Certain units are having clutch issues on the Gen4, Kawasaki is remaining silent on the cause. Word has it the factory screwed up on assembly of the slipper clutch on some of the early models and it looks like my luck was bad and got one. No one knows for sure but speculation is the clutch friction disks weren't soaked in oil before assembly. Several threads on this over on ZX-10R.net. My clutch has been acting up since day one, won't hold an adjustment. Set it to spec at 2-3 mm at the perch cold and it tightens up and will slip hot. Set it hot and the next morning, no free play. By the end of the driveway, tons of free play, then tightens back up hot. Never seen anything like it. Bottom line, I did a hard 235 mile back in the twisties Sunday and I think I got it hot and it started slipping. Something felt weird when hitting around 10,000 in fifth gear. Got it home and the lever was almost coming back to the grip. Adjusted that out and rode it las night, can't tell if it's slipping or not but when I pulled the lever this evening cold, motor not running there was a pop from the clutch like plates were sticking or something. I'm afraid I've smoked the clutch with only 4,000 miles. Never had a clutch go before and this is my 17th bike I've owned and I'm very gentle on my clutches, no drag starts ever, no abuse.
Could dry assembly do this? Some are saying that the clutch sits too high and gets inadequate oil flow, I don't know. I'm going to change oil and filter and ride it awhile, my concern is fiber fluff plugging a lubrication hole or something. What would the Hub do?

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118645

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=146338

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/14/2013 @ 8:54 PM *

This, 'happened since day one' should have been noted by the dealer taking another ride on it. Did that occur buy chance? If not, how about fleet 10r with their same-same seems like? Acts like? Has a field fix happened out there?

Say we are on our own. Say the first thing is to pull the oil cap and smell for a burnt smell at the throat, or a sweet smell of oil that just smells like oil. What do we have?

With the noise from the cover, the heat and cold lever differences, we can try a racing lever if you'd like? All it does is lets the slop be there when cold. So your mm might be double or triple that stock setting number. We are talking loose so the growth is not interfered with. And, lots of thumb wheel thread showing at the perch.

In other words, you already stole threads from the cable end at the bottom. You now want insurance at the thumb-wheel so you can feed more loose at it. If say the oil seems fine, the robustness caught up to you, or no, this is how I normally ride so no change here but 4,000 miles.

Then, say there is something amiss and if there a burnt smell behind that cover, then my guess is, the dealer PDI may not have helped. You hearing it first off may have some validity to it. Say it cooked out now is the smell. You were not even close to being hard on the bike say. Then, yes, there is a close, but maybe slight possibility.

Why? Because the clutch is being feed oil on the sling. And if there is a gap between fibers, a spiral down a solid fiber, then yes it is being fed oil since the bike keeps running out the oil pressure to the freewheeler transmission holes and those are large shaft channels. That sends or dumps the oil out that shaft, into the clutch outer, at the throwout bearing, out the spirals between the steels, etc.

So you are not confident with OEM? Barnett has this aluminum steel and fiber setup. Spins the basket faster with less weight. Killer starts. Short life if abused. Maybe they might stand mild abuse? Slight drag when warm so forget catching N and Creep is you will have that performance parts growth being part of the problem.

Hub, no, short answer I never took it back to the dealer. I was thinking it was a trait characteristic of the back torque limiter (slipper) and dealt with it by increased free play at the perch, about 6mm cold.

Pulled filler cap and oil smells good for 2000 miles, no unusual burnt odor.

Squeak in clutch I just isolated to cable dragging past the cable housing at the clutch cover. Squirt of WD-40 and noise gone.

I do not know if I have a slipping clutch yet, I'm going by what others have reported, see threads and other clues.

To summarize, during my ride Sunday I felt something odd with power delivery at high rpms in fifth gear, not sure if it was clutch slip yet or not but worth looking into.

Upon return bike had excess free play at the lever, more than I left with.

Clutch spring force seems about normal compared to a new one I checked out at the dealer.

Free play at the perch is temp sensitive, this I know, something changes when the pack is hot.

Several others are reporting premature clutch slip on their '11, one in only 1000 miles since new.

HubMeister, I'm getting a cold pop from the pack or somewhere in the slipper mechanism. Repeatable every time, ride it hard, put it away wet with 3mm freeplay at the perch. Let her cool down overnight, still around 3mm freeplay, in the morning, snap the lever and something releases, pop goes the weasel, now have about 6 to 7mm EVERYTIME.

I stopped in to talk to my buddy at Kawasaki. He's heard nothing on the 10R slipper from the Mothership, no reported issues from customers. I told him about the cold pop, he thinks the slipper cams are hanging up taking spring pressure off the pressure plate and stack, then releasing cold when I pull the lever. Does that make any sense to you? He thinks Kawi screwed up on the stack height during factory buildup and there's the issue. Stack height is adjusted with thinner steels, special P/N.

OK, one more clue. As a pack wears, does the clutch friction zone (engage point) move further or closer to the lever? In other words, you're in gear and stopped, levers on the grip, let it out slowly. When will she creep with worn stack, right off the grip or nearer to full release?

Hub, here is the clutch on my 10R right after I pulled the cover, do you notice anything funny? Look very closely.

Look very closely? School me. I can't see it. Here is what I do see:

1. Clutch outer ~ Look at the first fiber. Look at the tangs extend out on the clutch outer. This is as tight a pack as you want. Any thicker it's hanging out on the tangs. So lever wise to grip, you should have perfect release and that is a 1/3rd begins contact, or say for argument sake is that throw. It looks like you can break the lever away from the perch and slip the clutch is this looking good to me so far.

2. Spring markings ~ All that paint says to me is a virgin clutch that has yet to be disassembled. It says, I've been cleared, signed off of this pack for the assembly line to continue on down.

3. Gasket paper ~ Is at 3 o'clock. This is where if you do not see a clean surface of aluminum, even the paper peppered around the bolt thread holes, these too need to be leveled off with a brand new straight edge razor is what I find cuts the cheese. No nicks to the machined finish.

4. Pressure plate pull pin ~ This could be a photo shot and the light fandango is looking like your knock at the pull. So looking as close as I can, is that pin worn? It should be clean and shinny more or less, not worn off to the side like it sort of looks?

5. Pressure plate ~ This is where that plate pack is expanding out to the tangs. This is where the pressure plate moves out via the plate expansion, not the cable. So this move makes the cable walk tight; the pressure plate takes the swing out of the arm; the cable is being pulled; the cable keeps engaging the pressure plate to the pin; the pin has no where to go but keep pulling the plate away = Spin @ high rpm.

6. Clutch cable ~ Back to the knock. Sometimes the dry cable can hang up; knock; cause slip; poor engagement; etc. So from that list, the knock might be in the alleged dry cable?
a. At the perch, set the thumb wheel and adjuster bolt to the open guide setting so the cable can be extracted out of the perch.
b. Pull lever to grip; hold outer cable and pull it out of perch; being you now have the inner cable to sip out of the guide lineup at the thumb wheel, under lever is the swivel end and that cutout guide, etc.
c. You'll see the process or have done it before. So this is now the part where you snip the corner of the plastic sandwich bag; slip it over the outer cable; rubber band the bottom snip; pour a little engine oil in the funnel you made out of the baggie; keep the bag/cable upright until oil comes out the bottom of the other cable end; run the inner cable up and down so you move the flow down to the bottom = Knock gone?

7. Cable adjustment ~ If we are hot and aggressive, phantom spin of the engine with the clutch in, we might cause more heat or friction by that action. I want to narrow down my heat somehow so I shift up without lever, or blip-match as little 'phantom spin' as possible with lever. I also never pull the lever in, just break the clutch is all I want. That means zero play at the perch.
a. Racing setting: Since heat expands, so will the pack. That pushes the plates out, collects the slack = You need more as I hope it explained it up above. Having that cold, sloppy slack at the perch, theory would be we'd have the growth taken care of and maybe took up some slack?
b. Street setting: Again, that pack should not grow with normal street heat. Every time I had a cable, I'd set mine to zero play or on the raggedge there of. I never had the clutch slip under heat if I was sporting it some. I do not see anything different from then to this day, that this would not work for me if I had cable.

8. Slipper ramp ~ I'm thinking the slipper has zero to do with adjustment. This is to say, I'm seeing the ramp not come out of its trap door, but is closed, i.e., the ramp is deep enough in its groove, it has clearance to begin to move up to and then back to it's full ramp throw. So this ramp only triggers when the wheel does not time with the engine/ramp/trans release is the clutch comes into play. There is no knock on clutch pull if the wheel chatter idea is going to cause a knock, I think not at this time.

9. The pack ~ This is where the creep comes in. Say we have the springs will take out the warp of a steel or 2. Say when we pull the cable, this pulls the pressure plate away from, but not far from the pack.
a. The warp follows that gap; touches the friction; pushes into another steel; spins the clutch center; can't pull the lever up to N; while your other foot steps to keep up with the creep forward = Lever to the grips.
b. The lever to grip action is instant engagement if plates are in warp angle mode. Every plate needs to be flat so that short throw of the pin pulling the plate away is all she wrote is a perfect pack properly functioning.
c. As the pack wears; pressure plate moves in; springs are not strong but grow weak in length; the clutches begin to slip; the pressure plate moves in so far and stops into the clutch center; which stops the spring pressure; which slips the clutch. The lever engages way up at the perch when released, not close to the lever it once was = Pack wear.

10. 'Look closely' ~ This made me look up a parts blowout to see the clutch design. You have 2 friction sizes. You have same size steels, but the mm thickness is the difference, not circumference like the 2 in/out-frictions. So if you are saying look at the one friction tab in the other fork channel... Was that the look closely?

11. Spring leaf ~ http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2010-kawasaki-ninja-zx-10r-zx1000fafa/o/m148741#sch639996 The look up was to see HOW the 10r uses both of the same frictions at the front and at the rear. The rest of the 8 of this 10 pack of frictions lay in the middle. The steels set the pack. The spring leaf pack = May cause the pop?

Only your sandwich bag knows for sure.

Hub, you are a God amongst us mere mortals!

That is some good analysis there Hubmeister! More pics to follow, I got the whole thing tore down and she looks like brand new plates, hardly even scuff marks on the steels like she's just left the dealer showroom. I'll post pics momentarily.

I cannot find anything wrong with this clutch so far, no cause for the pop but I have a theory Hub. You are correct, after studying the slipper, it is not going to activate until back torque is indicated, stays in it's trap door so to speak.

Here's one of the steels, crap iPhone pic but it looks like I just pulled it out of a parts bag.

Fibers are bone dry, everyone of them, this might be the "pop". Rumor has it the factory did not presoak in oil before assembly. Dry as a popcorn fart in a whirlwind...lol!

Otherwise they look good to me, oil 'em up and stick 'em back together?

Clutch spring and screw, cross threaded on assembly and totally buggered. I don't know how he got it in there. Makes me wonder if this guy built the rest of my motor?

Plate pusher looks good to me, light polish is all.

Red stud is the stripped item marked for extraction, slipper springs visible just under the hub nut.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/20/2013 @ 7:15 PM *

I wasn't trying to school ya Hubster, I was wondering if you noticed there is not a drop of oil pooled anywhere on that clutch? It sits so high up on the motor it is not bathed in oil. Inside of the clutch cover was clean enough to eat off of. My lower fairings have more oil on them then the inside of the clutch compartment. How does this clutch live I'll never know but it works.

Hub, oh great one, greetings and felicitations! I was studying this pack and noticed a few things about the plates like the half circle cut outs in the fiber tabs. They put them there for something but no mention of this in the book. Same thing with the steels, the flat side of each plate faces outboard, smooth radius lip all facing inboard. No mention of any of this in the manual so assume it's builders choice. The judder spring is in a very specific location, inboard end between steel plates one and two. The installation drawing is hard to decipher but it appears the cone faces inboard. Not sure if it makes any difference or not. You looked at the manual, the two 2.6mm steels go outboard in 8 and 9 position while the 2.9s are inboard 1 through 7. There has to be a reason for this.

Appreciate it, guys!

Stack all the steels on your palm like pancakes. Make them all face the same direction. Look for daylight they sit static in your hand, nothing on top of them but the 9 plates is it? The point is to twirl them around, stack them over again like a deck of cards so the [original] top and bottom show someplace inside the pack is the rotation. Keep looking for daylight. This says one plate is buckled, one hard time getting in N or the creep is on!

"The Hand' will argue the point he has flopped the steels in either direction and does not go thru clutches if the cut side faces into the engine. I have seen one basket, I have seen them all. The cut always faces you is me disassembling a virgin clutch for some sort of service, some other brand, even the old shovelheads stamped the flat side out way back when.

I thought that stack looked right on the money. On the raggedged way out near the tangs is lots of clutch, lots of spring pressure. The frictions take on the same direction is find the cut or flat side of the metal. You know, I never asked what the hoop, half moon, tunnel was all about? I'll take a wild guess and say it moves oil thru there? There are 3 stagger points. If say the clutch basket stops at 12 o'clock each time, you could find the 6 o'clock position, line up all the cutouts in a row, here is the oil galley or tunnel to send whatever is behind the clutch: it gravity feeds down to the half moon cutouts and drains.

That being said, yes, I've tried lining up the half moons on assembly without any sort of damage. I would stagger them so they drain no matter where they are positioned. Other than that, I have no clue if they are balanced cuts? Are there the 3 or 1 or 2 only on a fiber? Then, I will take a wild guess and say they found a balance? I doubt it.

Only your fiber plate knows for sure.

As far as the bolt = Junk! No bite. And if the hole can be tapped clean? 40% bite left? Hand tighten? I would. As far as a duc using the same dry plates? As far as h-d using the same dry plates? As far as a clutch looks that dry, we want to keep it that dry. We will squeeze and fling what oil we put on it within seconds. We want to shuffle the frictions and steels so this 'stick' is broken and someplace to restick?

The bikes are have zero problems with this design, no? We see nothing obvious. All we see is an alleged dry clutch, as in not your normal oil bath? Is there a spring in between this shutter plate? Sort of a wave washer sandwiched in between and both steels are riveted together, wave trapped in the middle? When you said shutter, this made me think of the old style [riveted] plates.

And no, I could not tell how dried out or dry the clutch basket was from here? You're right though. The spring holes usually have a hanging drip or so however. The pin is wet enough looks like being that high as you say. The cable? Is the cable free to zip up and down in the outer cable housing effortlessly?

Appreciate the input Hub, I am in no way convinced I have found the source of the cold pop. You're right, this system is designed to run with minimum oiling, they moved the basket up high for better mass centralization and no windage losses as in no parasite drag from whipping oil in a bath. KHI is searching for small power gains everywhere.

I've been thinking this through, lack of oil on the plates is not the pop, something else is moving as she cools down and something is binding up. This design runs hot, especially the clutch cover, I can't touch it, no splash oil to cool it, sits too high. My ZX-6R cover is hand warm by comparison and no change in freeplay at the perch on that one as she warms up.

I'm taking another hard look at the clutch lever mechanism again, the shaft I can catch a fingernail on where it rides in the needle bearings in the clutch cover. Normal after 4000 miles? I'll post a picture. I'm grasping at straws now as I have no smoking gun. Clutch is opened up and the bind is right before my eyes and I can't see it.

So my theory, clutch cover gets very hot and expands taking the lever mechanism with it outboard, this is the close of the freeplay hot. There's a fork on the end of the lever that grabs the mushroom head on the push rod and pulls tension off the pack. I posted the picture, you commented on what looked like wear. OK, on cool down all this expanded cover metal contracts, lever freeplay increases but as it contracts is the bind. First pull of the lever next morning and the bind is released....pop?
I'm guessing here. Replace the shaft? I'm running low on ideas here. There is slight grooving or roughness inside the transmission shaft where the pushrod slides on moly grease. A clue to the bind , pusher binding somehow?

Does it really matter if the bind is not hurting anything? Clutch pack looks fine so where's the beef? Let it cold pop if there is no other effect....minor annoyance? That said, I'd like to find it while I'm in there.

Conical spring washer (judder) is between steels 1 and 2 on inboard side of the pack. There is the spring and spring seat. I didn't pay attention on disassembly, does it matter on the orientation of the spring facing inboard or outboard?

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/21/2013 @ 4:08 AM *

I thought that stack looked right on the money. On the raggedged way out near the tangs is lots of clutch, lots of spring pressure.

Those are my thoughts, this pack was built on the fat side, a lot of clutch plate, strong spring presure, no slippage noted. This puppy is locking up solid. Now for the pop I'm still scratching my head. Rook thinks I should just put it back together and whatever that was out of alignment may now be back in line. Might work, I don't have any other ideas at this point. If the pop is still there, I can live with it as the cluch appears to be working fine.

Colors on shafts are more oil/wear polishings. Big difference between a shine and a gall. If the shaft is not galled, gulley'd with a stepped groove, then no, it's just the heat/oil color/spin/slash/normal wear.

Those washer stacks or shims on a shaft? What do they look like they do in proportion? I'd have to see how they are placed and what is against it? What kind of housing it sits in? Does it move and help something? Is there a wear pattern on the last installed stack? And does this shim rub and cause that in-line combination of the cold 3mm gap to the 6mm gap when hot at the perch? See? That's about it to making any kind of snap/expansion/heat effect?

The ring & spring. We are going to take the clutch basket and move our eyes 90° to looking at the side of the clutch outer, not facing it. So looking at the side and in the back of the basket, say we sit on the bike and look down at the clutch outer. We stand to the right of the bike, we are looking at the inner, empty, big, outer basket.

The ring & concave'd spring, we want to see a wear pattern on the ring, not the concave. The concave causes [the wear it sits] pun in speak. This may give you an idea how to flip the flat? If you can't tell, then round faces the basket is my guess? With the cut side of the flat facing out to the basket, that memory is to push the wave as the wave is going to be compressed some and will be pushing in the same direction. So that's more or less the assembly.

We know the flat ring and concave sit in this position with the flat ring installed first, the concave kisses the flat ring next to it, the first big friction is going to be pushed out by the wave ring as a helper/noise quieter. So the washer is flat and do we see which way to flip the flat? We find the wear pattern on the face of the flat by the rubbing of the concave'd ring. This is how you install the ring first, the wave second:

|/ <<<< See how the top of concave ring is going to push at the friction? As opposed to flipping the concave ring and the right angle [at the top of this keyboard icon] could be flipped and look like this being wrong direction |\ in the basket. We have that direction visioned?

I'll have to side with Rook too. Not much obvious damage/parts integrity, i.e., a cracked plate, a warp at a steel, a too deep a groove in the clutch outer/inner grooves where the tangs bang on accel and decel? The steel shim stack is tight, not out of line is that pack. The steels and frictions show no sign of burn or heavier abuse would be burnt steels. Where do we go from here?

Back to that cable. Do we have perfect slide with zero attached to each end of the inner cable and does it hang up any, or slide inside like butter... All oiled up, wink-wink-pop-pop-fizz-fizz-oh what a relief it is.

Hub two other guys on ZX-10R.net are reporting the exact same issues. They're looking to me for answers and I have none. You would think that the Mothership would have this design thing down to a science by now?

* Last updated by: Kruz on 5/21/2013 @ 10:25 AM *

Make it happen, Kruz. This is where it becomes a 'field fix' out there with the owners/dealerships making an idea come into its own.

Let me get this right. They are complaining about a 3mm float between hot and cold and a click at the lever making noise and a lever that gaps more or takes up the gap when hot. Correct?

Pretty much but the freeplay change cold/hot can be more than that, something like 5mm-6mm in extreme cases at the perch and that's quite alot at the tip of the lever. Complaints of freeplay changing constantly, under acceleration, decel, hot, cold you can't nail it down. Clutch grab seems limited to early release '11 models and seems related to bad build techniques i.e. no assembly oil on plates. Bikes won't disengage the clutch at traffic stops, hard shifting, can't find neutral etc. Repots say disassemble and oil plates and it's fixed but cold/hot freeplay drift still remains.

I talked to one '11 owner at Starbucks while drinking $9 Espresso...lol. He took his back and had the stealer rebuild the clutch under warranty, said it was solid now with no freeplay drift issues. I walked over to his bike and pulled the clutch lever, no wonder they set it so tight there was negative freeplay. I told him to adjust that or burn up the pack. He told me that was the way the stealer told him to set it, no freeplay.

Some guys are reporting clutch slippage and burnt up fibers in as little as 1500 miles.

My problems are the big freeplay drift and the dreaded cold "pop". I thought I was only one but now two more with the exact same symptoms ahve surfaced for air. One guy has a new bike, I told him to take it back to the stealer and let it be his headache.

You saw my stripped clutch spring stud and that was factory build that the Mothership signed off on. Do you see why I don't want anyone to touch my bike at the dealer?

OK, rant off, do you want pictures of the clutch throwout lever assembly in the case, needle bearings layout etc?