Kak, mixing a little of synthetic (not changing the oil filter) with the mineral oil should not be problem. I wouldn't worry about it. What I have read about this is that once you mix them, treat it like it's all mineral oil, as far as interval between changes.

* Last updated by: runnerhiker on 11/30/2011 @ 1:39 PM *

is there enough venting going on for positive valve cover pressure. I remember removing the emmission valve on the top center (which most people do) and just blocking that off but not thinking about a vent.

If I understand you , you are saying the clean air switch valve creates more pressure in the head by introducing air from the airbox. I think it is the opposite.

The removal of the clean air valve/hose would increase pressure in the head, not reduce it. The PAIR didn't create suction. It did get some very small amount of pressure through that little grey hose from the air box but primarily, the PAIR scavenged flow off of the engine to create suction needed to send clean air to the exhaust. Seal the PAIR and you now actually have more pressure in the head. However, seems as though a pressurized environment might actually tend to leak worse than a less pressurized environment. So I think you may be right but for the wrong reason.

Edgecrusher; I didn't mean to say that's what caused the 14's leak. Only that it helped cause the general belief that synthetics leak when you switch. As far as when the 14 leaks, mine was definitely while it was running. When I finished a 60 mile ride there was a tiny oil trail on the lower fairing that wasn't there when I left. That was the first time my bike leaked, and there was no oil on the garage floor when I got back, but there was some the next day. My bike has never been on the side stand for more than a few seconds about 10 times. Obviously a problem in design/planning on Kaw's part. After 40 thousand miles my '76 KZ900 started leaking from the valve cover. I didn't care. I just wiped the oil off after every ride. Must be getting picky in my old age.

My bike had the valve cover leak before I switched to synthetic I switched after I fixed the leak the only mod I have is slip-ons.

Only that it helped cause the general belief that synthetics leak when you switch.

'the knowledge that synthetic oil cleans out residue left by conventional oil helped to cause people to believe that convetional oil residue was being cleaned out of the leak spots in their motors when they switched to synthetic from conventional.'

Excuse me, isn't that just a convoluted way of saying "switching to synthetic makes oil come out of your motor where/when you don't want it to?" I mean, if that is what happens, of course people are going to find out about it, talk about it and believe it. Sounds very plausible to me. No further explanation needed.

So performance is your only criteria in choosing an oil?

Good performance and it has to last at least 2000 miles if it costs 40$ to fill cuz that is the going rate.

so performance first, longevity and cost. The later two are equal but if it is too expensive because I need to change every 100 miles or it costs $30/quart, that isn't going to work for me even if it causes engine performance 10x better than any other oil I've used.

I would think a more reasonable explanation for the problem is a bad design of the valve cover mating surfaces or perhaps a cover which doesn't efficiently clamp down those surfaces.

Anyway, we are talking about more than just the 14 at this point. If other vehicles leak on synthetic, I am less inclined to believe that poor design is the reason synthetic leaks from a 14 or any other vehicle.

Rook; Only if you assume regular oil wouldn't have leaked eventually anyway. The synthetic just speeds things along because it runs cleaner. All engines will leak oil eventually. "performance first, longevity and cost" OK. For me it's longevity (engine wise) period. Pretty hard to find a quality oil in the proper viscosity that harms performance, and I'll gladly pay more for a quality oil if I think it will make my motor last longer. If I could buy it in flourescent colors, even better. Then I could read the oil level easier.

If I could buy it in flourescent colors, even better. Then I could read the oil level easier.

Hey, Now you might have something there! Good input, alg8er.

Also, I have some ribbing due one of these days. You will have to remind me when my time comes.

Okay Rookster...shall we begin? You caint go wrong with Motul Full syn.10/40.Fairly 'cheap'...Kawasaki recommended.Guaranteed....if you have an iffy gasket...it'll show up with that! Best stuff I've ever used.And I've tried a few.Now THIS I haven't tried.STAYING WITH DINO OIL.I wonder IF it will perform as well as the syn over the long haul.Should I go for it?I mean...it CAN'T hurt....no particular time to put syn in there,right?And the manual NEVER calls for synthetic...specifically.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/2/2011 @ 2:29 AM *

If I understand you , you are saying the clean air switch valve creates more pressure in the head by introducing air from the airbox. I think it is the opposite.

The removal of the clean air valve/hose would increase pressure in the head, not reduce it. The PAIR didn't create suction. It did get some very small amount of pressure through that little grey hose from the air box but primarily, the PAIR scavenged flow off of the engine to create suction needed to send clean air to the exhaust. Seal the PAIR and you now actually have more pressure in the head. However, seems as though a pressurized environment might actually tend to leak worse than a less pressurized environment. So I think you may be right but for the wrong reason.

no you didn't understand right. I was hinting at a buildup of positive pressure inside the valve cover which will cause any rubber gasket to leak. I learned this on my VW buggy. When your offroading you can spend a lot of time in the high rev range. A VW motor doesn't really rev that much to begin with but mine did enough that it would build up pressure and leak out the valve covers and any other place that wasn't a tight mechanical joint (involving rubber). I had to mount a breather bottle and run vent off my covers and the filler spout in order to get it manageable. Same thing here. Although, I never went into depth with the description. Unfortunately, people without that modification have complained about it happening too so it can't be the root cause but maybe exaggerates the symptoms, kinda like some people are suggesting the synthetic might, which I'm still not able to agree with.

On a side note, I've always wondered why I see so much of the oil they came out with a couple years back that supposedly renews gaskets and seals and is referred to as High Mileage oil. If I'm not mistaken, those type of additives are solvents witch make the rubber expand kinda like brake cleaner will to rubber gloves. This will only work for the short term and ultimately ends in earlier gasket failure than would have been experienced. Scam. I always get a little miffed when I see it in the store and think about all the unsuspecting people who buy it thinking it will help. I was just wondering what other people's thoughts were since it never comes up when talking performance oils.

High Mileage oil sounds like that Motor Honey crap they used to sell at auto parts stores. It was so thick it would temporarily stop your clunker motor from blowing smoke...right up until the point you threw a rod from lack of lubrication...lOL! I think all of that stuff you buy in a can is pure snake oil. Do you remember that PFTE Teflon oil treatment stuff they used to sell? Supposedly bonded to pistons, journals, bearings etc. and lowered internal friction, increased performance and gas mileage. Turns out that teflon won't bond to metal at the temperatures inside of an internal combustion engine, too low and besides the filter took it out of circulation and clogged before it could do anything anyway.

Okay Rookster...shall we begin?

THIS I haven't tried.STAYING WITH DINO OIL.I wonder IF it will perform as well as the syn over the long haul.Should I go for it?I mean...it CAN'T hurt....no particular time to put syn in there,right?And the manual NEVER calls for synthetic...specifically.

I ran Kawi oil up to 3K miles then switched to Synthetic. That is exactly when I started to noticed I had to a add oil. In fact, I remember adding to the synthetic and It may have been more than 1x before switching back. Very hard to say, but I am pretty sure I never had to add to the conventional oil I had used before switching to synthetic. Well, after that synthetic, I DID have to start adding even though I was back on dino oil. I actually was happy to see the leak one day because that meant my baby wasn't burning, just leaking.

Here I am at almost 29000 and I switched to synthetic again. The washer fix stopped the leak. The synthetic oil does run better and AFAIK, it will make the motor last longer. No harm to have waited all this time to go back to synthetic but if the data is correct, the motor would have worn less had I been using synthetic all the while.

So, I think I would do just what I did the last time I broke in a bike. Go with dino for several K miles (I'm waiting to 5K with the busa) so you know the rings are as seated as much as they are going to get. Switch to synthetic and then deal with the leakage if it happens. If alg8er is correct, it's gonna leak no matter what, it's just a matter of when, sooner or later?

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/2/2011 @ 9:27 AM *

Grn, it's very hard to make a solid recommendation on something nobody is able to say for certain if it does anything. You remember the member, philhness? He was quite knowledgeable and he recommended this for break in. It has metalic additives that are supposed to be good for break in. I changed oil really often in the first 1000 miles breaking in the busa. This stuff was expensive but I felt better using it for the time in every engines life where many of us suffer from owners anxiety. Use the dino with blue cap. The gold cap is synthetic.

no you didn't understand right. I was hinting at a buildup of positive pressure inside the valve cover which will cause any rubber gasket to leak.

I still think the synthetic increases the likelihood or speeds the processof developing leaks. Both KAK and I have virtually the same story.

BTW< I hope KAK comes back and tells us he had a wonderful trip and is heading off to Lowe's to buy some 3/8" or M10 washers. Stainless, KAK. You only need to use 1 under each bolt. Just do the two on the left if you don't feel like doing all 6. Only risk is maybe warping the head cover from uneven torque but I have never heard of that happening.

I'm getting closer to completing a little network of How Tos on this and about 15 other related items. Hope you can wait a few weeks. I don't want to post one at a time because it wouldn't be complete without at least some of the others.

Well...I already ordered and received my break-in oil.Motul....10/40...3100 I think it is?Something like that.

I just think Dino OR syn is gonna come outta that valve cover tip if there's a 'fitment' problem.Some guys report "it didn't leak UNTIL I put er on the sidestand".Somehow...there seems to be a weak link right there...for whatever reason.They don't all seep.IDK.In reality...I don't think ANYONE has yet to prove it's actually seeping right there.It COULD be entering the interface along almost ANY length of gasket surface,and the tipping(sidestand)part of it just gives it the right angle to make it's way to that area.The bike's upright while riding,and obviously there's minimal valve area pressure,otherwise,you'd see oil coming out from wherever around that cover gasket.Just one of those quirky Kawasaki deals.Kinda similar to the airbox wellnut thing.You'de have thought they'd do that deal different...but...nope.Still vulnerable to being pushed in there.

I wonder if the RIGHT side would seep IF you parked the bike angling the other direction?

I didn't stick with Dino oil long enough in my 07 to actually see how it 'held up'.I was doing the break-in deal...and doing the '3 oil changes then Full Syn' thing.For mine anyway...not near long enough to compare shifting quality between the two oils.That's mainly what I went by...how she shifted.When she'd start getting a tad notchy,then I'd change oil.Regardless of what the oil actually looked like.(It was usually looking pretty 'clean')...Royal Purple...ya...been there,done that.Decent oil...not worth the price though.IMO.Best I've used yet is Motul.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/2/2011 @ 11:43 AM *

.Some guys report "it didn't leak UNTIL I put er on the sidestand".Somehow...there seems to be a weak link right there...for whatever reason.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/2/2011 @ 9:30 PM *

Thanks for the replies. Not trying to start another oil debate.
I have no idea if the valve cover just started leaking or if it's been doing it longer. No idea on the rate of the leaking either. I keep an eye on things but with the bodywork hiding things it's hard to tell when it started. I do know the timing suggests the syn' oil could have something to do with it. I want the best oil I can put in the bike but I think it's worth a try. Hated to see $55 of oil go down the drain with only about 400 miles on it.
I'd like to just live with it if I can until the 15K valve check and a lot of other maint' I want to do at the same time. If running the dino oil can help slow the leak then I can probably wait. Based on what others here have said about doing the valve job it sounds like half the bike is spread out on the floor. Lots of stuff to take off and working in tight spaces. That's OK. That's the way it is. But what irritates hell out of me is how you can't re-assemble the bike with confidence that the new gasket, with proper sealing, won't leak again. Following SM procedure might not work. You have to come up with home fix-its to avoid a leak. Bad one on Kawasaki. They should come up with a 100% fix and get the word out. This ain't some old British bike, this is a 21st century bike that shouldn't leak. At least it seems that the washer idea works. I haven't read about anyones cover leaking that has used the washers. Bit of a worry though when you don't know how much torque to apply, what torquing sequence might be best, etc. Like we're all guinea pigs experimenting and on our own.
I've only ridden the bike once since I started this thread. Not enough time to see if the leaking has changed. I did notice no CCT noise the two times I started it but that's not positive proof that the noise has gone away with the dino oil in there.
I still plan to go on my ride to Death Valley next week as long as the weather stays decent. Hopefully the leak will decrease and not be too messy.

I wonder if Edgecrusher is on to something regarding crankcase venting?
I haven't studied an engine diagram on this bike but don't remember seeing any mention of a crankase vent line or PCV valve. All motors have to be vented, correct?
I'm one of many that in trying to decrease decel' popping I plugged that hose that goes from the air filter housing to the PAIR on top the motor. Seems like it did help some but now Edge has me wondering if the crankcase is now under too much pressure?? If the pair is also the crankcase venting then I'm taking out that plug no matter how much I don't like the popping.
In combination with a bad valve cover design, compromising the crancase venting could really be asking for a leak.
Opinions on this appreciated!

KAK: "They should come up with a 100% fix". When my mechanic asked Kawasaki about the washer fix, they said it doesn't work to their satisfaction. They say replace all seals, gaskets, bolts, and sealant with new spec versions. That is their fix. Remember, they aren't admitting it's their fault, so they aren't going to advertise a fix. I wonder what percent of newer generation bikes get the leak compared to 1st gen? Are they all leaking up to 2011, or did it get fixed along the way? I still don't think it has to do with using the side stand, as mine is never on the side stand.

alg8er, you said Kawasaki said to replace all gaskets, etc, with "new spec versions". Does that mean that new/updated gaskets, bolts, etc,(with modified part numbers I assume) are available for older models? If so, did you ask what was different about the parts? Sorry about not understanding.

Lets look at two separate loops and see their positions interact with each other. Lets start with the first loop.

PAIR:
A. This uses fresh filtered air on the post side of the ram chamber. The pre ram chamber is dirty air. We do not want to shoot chunks of bugs and stones into the cat to clog the honeycomb, nor cause the valves to crush down on grit particles flying around. This hose comes from the post ram, out to an actuator gate, or an electric relay that opens and closes, so as to let air pass into the exhaust chamber.
B. The reeds are like a one way switch. Those sit inside the bumps in front of the valve cover. This reed has no movement during the intake stroke. If you can imagine now, the exhaust happens, this air sucks on the reeds and they open. All the relay box or actuator gate trigger is doing is to open a charge of fresh air, where the gate times-in on the suck of the exhaust.
C. And of course, the gate opening has to rely on that reed to open, or else there is no fan in the actuator to push air into the exhaust. Are we seeing the air sucking loop from the post ram chamber? There is no way air can get into the crankcase from the PAIR system. If that was possible, it would have to fill the post ram first, then air would travel down to the next loop to cause a pressure inside the ram, then load the crankcase.

Crankcase Venting:

1. This is another loop that is plumbed into the post ram chamber. Crankcase venting goes something like this. There is a neutral type pressure on the static engine, meaning, it's not running, so it has the same atmospheric pressure as the outside, meaning, 14.7 psi.
2. We have established a vent tube ending in the post ram chamber, and the 1ATMO has not change, we spin the engine. For example, we spin the engine, the pressure is neutralized when on cylinder goes up, the other comes down. If we had a single cylinder, the vent tube would remain open, balance the draw in and the draw out of the bottom of the air pocket under the piston. This volume change lessens the volume on the piston descend. Move volume is needed to compensate for the piston moving up the cylinder wall. All this sort of says my air is neutral, I do not need venting.
3. Bring forward the ring compression against the wall. Here is where the air has to push the ring out from the piston groove, run down the next ring, expand that tension via air whooshing past the ring grooves. Notice more air entering the crankcase due to this constant event.
4. If we had bad rings, meaning, the ring gap is worn and wide; this adds a heck of a lot more pressure. It shows smoke from the ring fire as in, an old car that smokes out of the crankcase vent? That is a worn engine, adding a bunch of pressure into the crankcase.
5. If we have more oil in the crankcase, what that does is displace the air that was once there to compact. You cannot compact oil or a liquid. This adds more pressure to the bottom end. The venting bleed off channels become so overwhelmed with extra liquid not air. This then pushes all that high speed rpm spinning of excess oil, into the ram chamber. If you find oil in the post ram chamber, it is most likely you added too much oil. Last thing you want to do is check compression and find you are under 160psi or there about? It says ring integrity; holding back a minimum amount of blowdown.

Does that answer your question about vent pressure movement to crankcase pressure cause and effect? If it run less oil, we lose some bottom grunt. Call me crazy, but if you take a basket ball, let some air out, it won't bounce well. Find the proper pounds inside, that ball will bounce with tone. Tell no one about grunt tuning with oil levels in a wet sump engine.

Thanks Hub. Hope I have this right...
The PAIR has nothing to do with crankcase venting?

The 14 has no crankcase venting? You're usually way over my head with your explanations, which is my fault. I thought all motors needed some form of venting.

I was discussing (any) generic engine theory. Yes, every engine has to vent. If that air from the blowdown from the rings is in a constant entry point, we have to somehow, re-neutralize that 14.7 constant in the crankcase, or we will blow seals out and all those leak points we are talking about.

So yes, the 14 vents into the intake side. They are in a yin and yang of a balancing act. We have a minimum amount of seals having pressure behind it. The intake sort of sucks on the tube so it creates that ever so slight balance.

Correct, the PAIR has zip to do with crankcase venting. It is just using fresh air when needed.

I haven't studied an engine diagram on this bike but don't remember seeing any mention of a crankase vent line or PCV valve.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/4/2011 @ 4:36 PM *

KAK; Kaw didn't supply any parts numbers to me, and I think it's overkill to cover their ass, but that was their reply to my mechanic when he asked about the "washer fix". Before I did all that, if I was fixing the leak myself, I'd try the washers. The only thing I would worry about, besides the leak returning, is how the washers would affect the factory torque numbers.