I sure would like to see a video locked onto a AFR gauge while running Zero to Wide open throttle. I know some members have paid dearly with spark plugs and got off Easy. Lucky it was not worse. Are you all so sure that there has been enough Fuel added in the middle to make up for past Maps. I would invite you all to do a few Map compares with some of the maps made by the pros. Can they all be that far off ? Just trying to keep a open mind is all. Cheers.

I love this thread, the original FAIC thread was probably the most entertaining of all time on this forum. Anyway, I'm staying out of it this round, I'm just happy for the guys that are happy with their Jeffo tune and it appears from the poll results that most are. It's kind of hard to argue with that, if it works it works.

Cheers

* Last updated by: Kruz on 6/8/2011 @ 7:08 AM *

Privy said,

I still don't know how anyone can do it without even seeing the bike, but then, I'm the one that wants to point out that every single ZX14 made since January 2008 has been mechanically and electrically identical, so why shouldn't FAICS be able to do that? Dunno...

this is a very thought provoking statement. I am no engineer (not that they really know shit anyways), but I know from my experiences and perhaps a bit of common sense that it is not possible to mass produce an engine which comes out of the factory with the exact same fuel requirements for every unit. There has to be a certain amount of tolerance for error worked into the equation to account for differences in production qualities. There are so many examples of how the same parts can have a minute differences in tolerance not to mention the way all the parts are put together. Just experiencing the thought process behind a valve job will convince you this. Anyone who has worked in an automotive factory knows the parts made on the morning after the local bar night usually lack some quality to parts made on Mondays after a relaxing weekend or maybe even Tuesday once the hangover from the weekend has worn off. Break-in practices can even have an impact on engine efficiencies due to the amount of initial wear achieved and subsequent cylinder tolerances. Not to mention machinery issues which come up often. In order to get that finely crafted extreme tolerance engine the production costs would soar and time would slow.
So to say that every engine can be tuned to run on the same fuel mixture at maximum performance is a little naive' if you ask me and why I think much of the success of PC maps is in the 'perceived' improvement over all else regardless of some supposed track experience that we have to take someones word for. Evidently, this Jeffro character is very good at translating engine diagnosis' over the phone into the numbers it takes to accumulate a change in performance for his customers. He also realizes it's not going to be right the first time hence the great customer service testimonials. The fact that certain dyno operators can't improve upon some of his maps may be more of a testament to the actual expertise of the dyno operator. I can't believe that a qualified knowledgeable operator of a Dyno wouldn't be able to improve on a map with that particular bike right there infront of him unless there just isn't all that much to change in the first place. But I think as long as damage isn't being done and people are getting what they paid for then there is no reason to slam Jeffo. Just maybe the some of the squids need to get more educated so they can see how silly they sound. But then again, what the hell do I know. lol

Actually, Edge, every single engine coming from Kawasaki for a ZX14 since 2008 is, within a few tenths, exactly the same at the engine level.

Same bore volumes, same port configurations, all computer measured and rejected if a port runner is more than a few tenths. Plus they run them and make sure before letting the bike go.

So they all pretty much work the same.

the original FAIC thread was probably the most entertaining of all time on this forum.

Had every ones back hair up that's for sure.

I'm just happy for the guys that are happy with their Jeffo tune and it appears from the poll results that most are.

2ND

this Jeffro character is very good at translating engine diagnosis' over the phone into the numbers it takes to accumulate a change in performance for his customers.

This one has a bad ring to it, Edge do you really believe that's possible ? I almost went for the FAIC map as well but could not get my head around this one. I'll see if I can take a pic with a map compare in it. Hold the phone lol.

Sorry guys, had to delete those. If you saw that shhhhhh. The name of the tuners was still visible. My bad.

Privy, the few tenths you refer to are exactly what I'm talking about more or less and yes they work the same but we are talking fuel mixture. I know this is very vague- every bodies' lungs are basically designed the same but everyone doesn't breathe in the same amount of air. That's basically the difference between our arguments.

and Romans, I was being generous so people could see that I try to be objective. I just get wrapped up in the mechanics involved and think the guy must have just built up a good understanding of where he needs to look for every symptom and which way to go. If he is a diligent note keeper, it's possible he has accumulated enough data that he can confidently start with a map that will get close and then tweaks according to the weaknesses he's encountered in the past with his own maps. If that is all you do 24/7 I could see how you'd get your mind tuned into seeing things for what they are. The problem I have is when uneducated people are giving him his symptoms over the phone and just how reliable that can be to base the quality of the map on. Perceived performance is what his business should be called because short of any quantitative values that can be physically measured off the bike like a dyno or actual racing data, you can not say the bike is actually any better except for what you perceive. Note, not everyone said it was a perfect map from the start.

I never saw a thing.

Ok, Round two. Blue line is made on a Dyno by some one you all know very very well. Green line is made over the phone.

There is No doubt that both tuners take a very different approach. Food for thought. Cheers.

* Last updated by: Romans on 6/8/2011 @ 1:05 PM *

Hub I was hoping you missed this one, but now I see you have your popcorn. Can't be Good lol.

If that is all you do 24/7 I could see how you'd get your mind tuned into seeing things for what they are.

But still ? If the customer was giving the AFR # to the tuner I could see him being able to make a safe map that would work well. May not have the most hp but would be clean.

Note, not everyone said it was a perfect map from the start.

Valid point.

I posted this just so all reading would keep a open mind. I think Kruz is up for round two Rofl,,,, just kidding bro.

Edgecrusher wrote:

Privy, the few tenths you refer to are exactly what I'm talking about more or less and yes they work the same but we are talking fuel mixture. I know this is very vague- every bodies' lungs are basically designed the same but everyone doesn't breathe in the same amount of air. That's basically the difference between our arguments.

Ok, but consider "a few tenths" is about 3/10,000 of an inch, or .0003, it isn't going to even show up on a dyno run.

Also, all bores are within ability to measure exactly the same volume. All intake runners machined by the same CNC equipement with more than .00001 accuracy. Probably .000001 or better. And then they flow bench them and it all has to pass, and its all going to flow the same. If it flows better, and you know the Japanese, they will pull the part and go back to where it was made, and figure out why, because they don't want any variance in manufacturing tolerance whatsoever, good or bad, they want zero.

The throttlebodies are the same, everything has to be made to spec, and Japanese specs are hugely precise. Take my ZX14, pull the throttlebodies off another 2008 (assuming its been maintained as well as mine, with period additives to clean the injectors, etc.) and put them on mine, and it will dyno exactly the same. Because the ECU won't let it be different.

So the dyno pull on a ZX14 made in January is going to be so close to the pull of one made in December, 12 months later, as to be undetectable by all but the very most experienced tuner.

And on the street, undetectable period.

Folks think because US-made stuff has historically had such large variances (and this is no longer true, because even Harley engine production is all CNC and flow-benched now) that the ZX14 would. This is an invalid assumption.

Its the same reason Brock Davidson can give me a street/strip map and it will run exactly as he predicts, and he has never seen my bike. He might, in the future.

So my question is, if Brock can do it, why can't FAICS ?

You won't hear any Jeffo bashing from me, I tried his map and wasn't pleased but I apparently was the only one who wasn't satisfied so I let it rest. I am no tuning expert, understand the theory but theory and the practical are often far different animals as everyone knows.

I'm listening to both sides of this argument and agree with points from both. My thoughts are that Kaw and every other manufacturer spend a lot of effort and time getting baseline ECU settings right from the get go to give reasonable performance, fuel economy and aslo meet arcane Government standards for emissions and sound levels. Many of these are conflicting and the manufacturer's do a pretty decent job of reaching a compromise that will resolve all these issues. They do produce only one ECU for a given model though and every bike of that model production run is going to get the same baseline fueling, regardless of individual engine breathing characteristics. that's the argument I have used in the past when using semi-custom maps like Ivan produces. I have noticed that some tuners will create a topend performance map or a fuel economy map or whatever the customer desires. I also know from my experience with aircraft engines, there is a fairly large range of A/F ratios in which an internal combustion engine will run, give accceptable performance and not blow up. Anyone that flies behind a piston engine knows however, that certain mixtures, i.e. excessively lean, can have dire consequences on top cylinder health when viewed over the long term. It can make the difference between going to a typical full 2000 Hour TBO or having to top off the engine at 1000 hours or so. Makes a big impact on the hourly operating costs and must be factored in along with the fuel costs.

I guess what I'm saying is that a guy like Jeffo may have developed an empirical formula over the years if he did a lot of dyno tuning. If a guy is sharp he begins to notice certain things over time, rules of thumb or patterns emerge that give a desired result.

If those two maps that Romasn posted are for the same machine, there is going to be a big difference in how they run. I can already guess, the jagged one was done using the DynoJet Tuning Link software and the smoother one was done by Jeffo.

One problem I have with the DJ tuning link software is that it chases a target A/F value, typcically around 13.5:1, although this can be programmed by the operator. This approach may not give the best overall throttle response since engine acceleration and decelleration are dynamic events and may require more or less fuel than is necessary to simply operate the engine in a steady state condition.

I do know this much, it is possible for a poorly trained technician using the DJ tuning Link to royally screw up a bike, I've seen it done plenty of times. The peak HP numbers are almost always on target, that's easy for the software but it takes someone who knows what he's doing, i.e. experienced hand, to get the part throttle stuff that is so important to us right. How many times have you heard of someone having a bike tuned and they complain about poor part throttle response. they go to an experienced tuner and the top HP numbers don't change but the bike is much easier to ride and live with in teh part throttle zone where we spend 90% of oour time. I think this is what Jeffo is doing, I speculate he knows how to get a smooth running A/F without losing too much on top.

Kruz, 100% with ya.

Privy, are you telling me they make all the parts for this bike at just one factory? Well I've learned a lesson. You're right. I was under the assumption that there was several toolings per part incase one breaks and even several suppliers. I know they measure all these things for tolerances, but tolerances they are nonetheless. I have never been to Japan to see how or where they build these bikes so I can't say like I know it to be fact. I'm just saying from my experience in the automotive industry no two toolings are exactly the same and things will be different no matter how hard you try. Otherwise the Space Shuttle would have been an utter success and we wouldn't be guttin her and sending her out to pasture!

I think as far as this corner of the topic is concerned I will agree to not agree with your view and leave it at that. You weren't an engineer at any point in you life were you? Because that would explain why you and I can't come together on this. lol

Now there's an explanation.Well said,Kruz AND Rome.I think yer both correct.I told Jeff what I was looking for.He mapped her.I rode her.The bottom still had a slight lag/bog.I called him...he remapped.Bog gone.Told him I wanted power top end,but not TOTALLY ripping....since I don't stay there at all.She pulled all the way up to,well,at the time,190.(speedohaled,GPS'd).Told him I wanted smooth,but immediate response for passing and such,that my fuel economy was not CRITICALLY important.He mapped er...36 mpg.The idling temp ended up being lower.She isn't dyno'd.I don't intend to "see" what she's producing.Every bike produces a different amount.I know when downshifting to accelerate,she friggin flies...no problem.

Whatever or however he maps his deals,I trust him.My bike hasn't displayed any negative things engine-wise with his map in there(that I can tell....YET).And I have compared it to some other maps(that I installed and ran)Some of em give ya a real rip when ya open er up full on,but they lack smoothness and rideabilty to some degree)To be fair...I don't open my bike ALL THE WAY UP when I'm riding.ONLY if I'm already rolling and runnin her up through the gears.And that depends on what gear I'm in and what rpm I'm shifting at.Pulling my frontend up in 3rd,or even 2nd is not something I want to happen.I'm pretty sure that an experienced 14 rider COULD get my bird to jump through the hoops.Probably would stun the shit outta me if someone REALLY rode my bike like they knew what they we're doin!.But I'm very okay with the way she performs right now.WAY better than the stock map....and way better than any of the DYNOJET maps.IDK.Mine is okay as far as I know...which really means little.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/8/2011 @ 11:53 AM *

I sure would like to see a video locked onto a AFR gauge while running Zero to Wide open throttle.

N E 1 ?

I did a PC5 on my 2008 and it was loaded with the Dynojet maps. Dynojet was a big improvent over nothing. I talked to Jeff and he asked about a million questions with some I understood and some he had to define for me. He made a map that I liked 1st time and it is only a hot dogger map since I do not do balls to the wall on the bike. It dynoed out at 170 rwhp and after a custom map made on the dyno was 175 rwhp. Dyno guy just said wow on a wild ass guess map so in the end bottom and mid are still Jeff and top is by Quiktime.

He did a map for my cousins 2008 CBR1000RR and all I could get back from cuz was "Holy Fuck now I have to learn to ride it all over again".

I am not saying that Brock and others do not have better maps but that their maps may not be great for the way I ride. Not everybody has to be king.

Hi Romans,

I'd be interested to see the graph for 0% and 2% throttle. backing up blue's comments, street riding, for me, i spend a lot of time in that range. I measured this one day by pulling in the clutch in the midst of my gentle accelerations (which still leaves cages in the dust) to find the tacho move up to 5000rpm. I don't have an LCD so when I got home and connected, I wondered what throttle position was needed to get 5000rpm with no load... answer, did n't register with the software as it was less than 2%

I have a tuner produced map, and I'm unhappy with the throttle response and general feel when cruising as its 'buzzy'. The only mod I have is the flies are out. I'm messing with ignition and fuel maps chasing the smoothness and response.

Stock throttle response was not what I believe should be offered by a modern Japanese four cyl.

interesting thread!

It dynoed out at 170 rwhp and after a custom map made on the dyno was 175 rwhp. Dyno guy just said wow on a wild ass guess map so in the end bottom and mid are still Jeff and top is by Quiktime.

That's good info... Thanks for posting.

Would still love to see the AFR's for a Jeffo map, though.

Whatever or however he maps his deals,I trust him.

Blue please don't think I'm saying not to trust him,,,, but,,,,, If you had a AFR gauge placed on your bike and your bike was reading 14.7 or higher in different rpms would you still run the same map ?

The Blue line was made on a Dyno by a pro. I just find it odd that the one place most all tuners have been adding fuel the green line takes lots of fuel out,,, lots of it. Crisp I'll bet, but without a tool to gauge, who can say for sure. Lots of trust required.

I assume jeff has added some fuel after what happened with Monster, but with out at least looking at the AFR #s I am a little skeptical. -18s on the fuel cells can be scary in a area we spend most of our time.

I sure would love see Monsters First Map compared ? Just to get a idea of course. Love this stuff lol.

Hi Romans,
I'd be interested to see the graph for 0% and 2%

For the same map compare, Or against yours ?

I don't really know anything about...what a lean condition or whatever would actually LOOK like on one of these graphs.I can see the green line is below the whatever line...I'm guessing ya that that's a "leaner" condition.Now....what I'm wondering,asking really,is this...without having ever SEEN a factory map...how are "we" determining IF the graphed "values" are actually a "lean" condition for our motors?I mean...has ANYONE posted up a real Kawasaki map....and looked at the values?The fuel cells have either a positive or negative value placed in there.But really,how does anyone KNOW that lowering a value from a stock map(not knowing WHAT the values are actually showing in regards to fuel flow)are creating a certain condition.Am I making sense?Zero's are just that....ZERO CELL CHANGE.It doesn't tell you HOW MUCH fuel is being delivered.

You can tell,I don't quite get the mixture amounts clearly.I think I understand about Air/Fuel mixing.You know that Kawasaki map....the stock one.It shows zero-s on up to about 3000 rpm...something like that.When I first hooked up my PC...opened the map files from Dynojet...the lower rpm ranges from 5000 on down were basically zeros in there.Not positives or negative fuel deliveries.Just zeros.When Jeff mapped my PC...those values were now adjusted,up or down...however.I don't know where I'm going with this,but this idea or whatever concerning lean fuel mixes,I don't see (yet) where adjusting the values up or down from the ZERO stock settings are actually creating a dangerously lean condition.

You've heard plenty of guys say...it's "rich" from the factory...you know,something like that.Or lean...whatever.I'd like to see a Kawasaki factory map....has anyone seen one of these?My PC as far as I know...displayed a map file originally that was "apparently" preloaded into the software for my zx14.I think it said at the bottom..DJM...which to me indicates one of THEIR maps...NOT the factory one..I don't think that PC software was showing the factory Kawi map at all.Am I wrong here?

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/8/2011 @ 2:44 PM *

I don't really know anything about...what a lean condition or whatever would actually LOOK like on one of these graphs.

Blue if you Look at the Center line in the Map above, that line is the stock Map. Zeros mean no change, + numbers above that line are adding fuel over stock ECU settings. Same for the minus #s below stock.

What is troubling is if you remember the lean condition reported when flies are removed(as shown in Brocks Dyno graphs)around 3800 Rpm, this is the area with - 18 in the cells(YIKES). Most all tuners have added fuel to repair this condition, but not in the above map. Also 3800rpm is where Highway speeds are located. Long trips running with that much fuel pulled can't be good.

ZERO CELL CHANGE.It doesn't tell you HOW MUCH fuel is being delivered.

I hope the above makes it a little clearer. Not really important what stock #'s are. What is important though is the changes from Zero you make. The further away from zeros in either direction always worth a second look.

ok I'll play ..how about this .. we boot up 50.00 to jeffo to tune my bike .. turbo on E85 with a FMU . its got to be worth 50.00 for all the laughs . And if his map can out preform my custom datalogged map ..i'll put raw egg on kruz's face Sunday and take a pic ..

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 6/8/2011 @ 3:02 PM *

Hmmmm, I'll bite, stock 440 injectors, E85 = + 80 on all cells above idle Lol. How did I do ?