It's all good Grn, long as we agree that hanging off the side of our bike is pretty much a waste of time...at least on the street....lol!

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Ok. Ive read this thread twice... and i think i have it all straight in my head now.
Kruz did some calc and concluded leaning off the bike was extremely effective.
Grn14 and the Rookster said "nah, it really doesnt help... just looks cool".
Kruz countered with "you can save yourself extra cashish by under-inflating street tires... makes them behave just like qualifiers".

After much civil debate and 3D modeling via NASA jet propulsion lab computers its been concluded everyone was correct to a certain extent.

Do i have that down correctly or do i need to read the thread again?

Im just kidding fellas!!

The calc i understand... and i remember the physics experiment from high school. Loved that class.

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"hanging off the side of our bike is pretty much a waste of time...at least on the street....lol!"..Ya...pretty much.I don't try to do it now.I'm still getting the feel for best body position for curves with this bike.It has a slight ergo change to it...feels a bit more compact than my 07...the seat is formed differently also,and she behaves differently when you're cornering at a good clip and trying to tuck in and feel the center of the bike(front to back)...kinda hard to explain really...it's probably different for every guy with the new bike.IDK.I get my best bar feel up close to the tank...but sometimes it feels just a bit 'cramped'...although that's a poor way to describe it..cause the wheelbase and all is virtually the same...all of it.Just slight changes.Oh well...sa'll good.The suspension's a bit firmer as well...that may hev something to do with the 'sharpness' that I'm feeling when carving and rollin 'fast'.(which I've been doing less of)...carving REAL fast I mean.100..ya..120,130...ya..sometimes more.But this bike feels really good just doing those speeds.

Yes.....see that front guy's feet?Equally sitting on the pegs.Slight inward body lean...but nothing extreme.His feet(foot on the inside) is scraping the tarmac.

We all know that liter bikes get 190 profile tires on the rear and and 600s get 180s. If a 190 has a larger contact patch than a 180 and grip is determined by contact patch, why not stick a 190 on the 600 and corner like a cat on velcro?

I've done two track days since putting a 190 on the rear of my CBR600RR. It's working GREAT! -bg

Kruz did some calc and concluded leaning off the bike was extremely effective.
Grn14 and the Rookster said "nah, it really doesnt help... just looks cool".
Kruz countered with "you can save yourself extra cashish by under-inflating street tires... makes them behave just like qualifiers".

I don't know why people keep misinterpreting me, these conclusions are like 180 degrees off from what I said.

I did the calc and concluded leaning off the bike was not that effective, a couple of degrees and unless you were racing probably not worth the effort.

I said not to underinflate your street tires to mimic track tires as it won't work due to different tire construction.

Grn and Rook can speak for themselves.

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I want to agree with you on the street tire spec inflation assertion. I haven't found much use for low tire pressure on the street. Usually, it feels mushy and unstable to me + tires wear faster. However for track use the difference between 100% pressure and 66% pressure was huge with street/trackday tires. Even for braking, my rear tire would lighten but no squirming around like it was doing fully inflated. The difference was so great I wouldn't think about going on a track again with 100% inflation. It works for some reason so I'm sticking with it regardless of what the math says.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/24/2012 @ 8:58 AM *

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"hanging off"
Here is my opinion. Hanging off is a result of contemporary bikes power and tire technology. Look at Mike's tire above! Would you attempt a 60 degrees lean on it? Would you put an 180 hp bike on it and carve corners? Proper hanging off is done when you've reach max lean on a specific corner but need/want to go faster. The old timers didn't need it because they never achieved that degree of lean and didn't have the kinda of power that'll make your rear come around you when you give too much throttle too early. Let's go back in time and look at the crashes. We see racers running out of rear tire or tucking the front or just loosing control. Fast forward to today and the most common crashes in racing are the classic rear tire coming around! So the math tells us we have too much power in relation to the tires.

Now hanging off for Joe Average on track or on the street! Should Joe hang off? My answer is yes definitely. Sorry for the poor comparison but hanging off is the equivalent of a Dunk in basketball. A dunk is a high percentage shot. Mastering it offers clear advantage. The only problem is that most of the kids I have coached throughout the years try to dunk when they don't even know how to dribble or shoot properly! Since I have moved to Austin, I have been trying to hang off on every turns until I saw this thread and began to wonder. Also, after going on several group rides with veterans and newbies like me. I found that the old school guys were as fast if not faster than the guys who were hanging off! However, comparing different riders (hanging off v.s not hanging off) is not a valid method. What we have to do is compare the same rider performing both style with the same MODERN bike on the same corner. When done this way, the result is fool proof; hanging off has an advantage. What happens is that too many guys like me who are still struggling with fundamentals try to jump to the cool stuff. At first, I immediately gained speed by hanging off but as my corner speed increased, all my bad habits amplified: tensed upper body, lack of pressure on the pegs, late and slow steering, bad lines etc. I was looking silly hanging off while an old overweight guy in the middle of his seat was passing me, one hand of his handle bar, on his touring bike lol. Staying put in my seat allows me to focus more on my steering and identify the bad habits. Thinking about how to properly hang off, when to start hanging off, get back in the seat etc just add to many variables on a newbie plate. As Lee Parks says it in Total control book it is best to focus on a couple of things when learning new tricks. Now I work on one single technique every time I go out and I can say my speed has increased drastically and my tires look beautiful. I will probably be able to milk an extra 2000 miles on my tires lol

I was really surprised to see Kruz post. An old record on some track that couldn't be beaten by new rider with new riding techniques i.e hanging off. My take on this is: that specific track must be more suited for low powered bikes. From John McGuiness to Stoner, the fastest men in the world hang off. The math is that simple! There is a lot of talk about hanging off, throwing a leg a la Rossi etc but bottom line those guys win races for a living. It is not because it doesn't work for you that it is an unnecessary riding technique. For sure whether you're a backroad carver or an AMA racer if you're pushing the bike and pushing yourself hanging off is a no brainer. As far as the newbies who are trying to hang off on every turn, they're just like those kids practicing dunks, having fun

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Hold ON!!!

WOT is #2 doing up there is the first photo??

I mean, it's not the most dramatic I have ever seen but still--

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"I don't know why people keep misinterpreting me, these conclusions are like 180 degrees off from what I said"...amazing,isn't it?I had MY turn with this.....who's misinterpreting?Seriously.Ya might wantta check out their other posts.A pattern maybe.....maybe a..............OMG....TROLL!!!!! One GOOD thing about those trolls....they can't catch ya while yer ridin yer rocketship!!!!That's all YOU baby!Yours.Can't misinterpret that!!!!!!!!WHEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/24/2012 @ 10:52 PM *

No 2 has his Visor level with the road, he's just using his hips more, love the mud guard on No 9 wouldn't race without one, made of steel probably

dragking, I agree with you and would add that you also need a corner that is tight enough to warrant leaning off,
you don't need to get the knee down on sweepers, only corners that are tight enough and you've got enough speed to make it all flow, it has to be smooth.

not a kneedragger myself, but in the tight stuff do sometimes have a go have the odd dunk.

Heck...IDK nuthin about this deal really.All I really know is how I feel when cornering 'hanging OUT"...rather than 'off'...vs leaning in with the bike on the seat but off center just a bit,with my inside leg hugging the fairing and my outside knee hugging the tank just at the lower top concave.Leaning in and using my weight to 'help' the bike lean in more.Getting off too far...I feel the steering begin to disappear...I mean...I don't feel that it's near as steerable as being closer into the bike.It may just be a 'comfort' thing.But that's just me.I can go faster doing it like that than the other way.Course,I'm not on the TT either....which actually,you don't see those guys hanging off....????

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/25/2012 @ 11:14 PM *

not a kneedragger myself, but in the tight stuff do sometimes have a go have the odd dunk.

Looks like you are having fun. I would do the same, an occasional knee down once in a while just to keep things interesting!

Course,I'm not on the TT either....which actually,you don't see those guys hanging off....????

They do hang off not as much as motoGP but still. It takes more than arm steering to move a bike at 160 mph.

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they do hang off

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Okay...yes...I see.But what I'm seeing isn't hanging off.May I make an observation here...I would be more inclined to believe they're NOT getting their weight to the inside to necessarily better their turnability...but this........they're using their leg as a sail...to create more drag so the bike will want to turn in better.Sound crazy?Check it out.Where is their body,and where are their arms and head.Virtually right over the midpoint,except for a small amount getting just off center of the windscreen as they keep their heads perpendicular to the ground to help their inner ear stay in balance.What they're doing is not 'hanging off'....they're adjusting their bodies to stay balanced and let the bike lean in while their weight is focused on the inside of the contact patch.Trying to get as much downward force to that patch as possible.'Hanging off' would not get that to happen.But slight transference of weight to the contact patch angle would.

You've done some fast hard cornering...yes?What made your bike more stable and allowed you to go faster in the turn?Getting your body off to the side...your arms in an awkward position for steering?OR....staying pretty much centered,but leaning with the bike more as your speed increased...keeping you head horizontal with the road surface?The more you can get the weight of the bike and the weight of your body OVER and in line with that contact patch angle...the harder she'll grip and the faster and harder you can lean...up to the point of....crashing.Having your bodyweight farther inward to the inside of the turn,'away' from the bike...is pushing the chassis away from the contact patch through centrifugal force.You can ONLY turn deeper by LEANING the bike...not getting the bike more upright and your body inside more.They're not doing that.They're shifting their weight only a bit off center so all the force goes right to the inside leading edge of the contact patch.They could NOT get more lean if their body was in the way.Surely you can see that in those vids,yes?Stop the vid at the point of deepest lean...what do you see?You see the leg as a windblock,and their body lined in with the lean angle and 'imaginary' line of the contact patch edge.That's what I'm seeing.NOT loading the inside with their body and lessening their angle.

There's a couple of places there where yes,they're(some of em)are getting very far off the center line.....on the really tight stuff...and slower speeds.You don't see them doing that on the faster stuff.The faster stuff...they're keeping their bodies more in the center of the bike and using their leg as a windbreak.That's what it looks like to me.At those speeds...that amount of disruption in the airflow will cause a considerable amount of inside force...especially on a lighter bike.

Now...can anyone explain the wiggle I'm seeing from virtually every rider's bike while cornering and such?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/26/2012 @ 3:15 AM *

Now...can anyone explain the wiggle I'm seeing from virtually every rider's bike while cornering and such?

Cornering oscillation? --that's simultaneous drifting front to back. The front and back tires trade loosing traction and grabbing. Front back front back front back... The grab actually encourages the other tire to slide and vice versa. If one or the other tire doesn't grab for one reason or another, its a crash almost for certain.

I see plenty of ordinary speed wobbles resulting from wheels touching down. We all have discussed that at great length. That's similar to the front back drift except happens in a straight line from wheel paths getting crossed after one or both wheels regain road contact.

Where I see the really unusual wiggles is when they wheelie off of a rise. They fly up and wiggle like a fish jumping out of the water. I imagine that is the rear tire barely touching the road and still spinning under full throttle, it slips around trying to grab.

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Thanks Rook...do you get that when you're on the track?I'm curious here because these guys are having their suspensions tuned by experts.Does that wiggle (I know you said what it is...and I accept that completely)... mean they could adjust some more to eliminate that?Or do they just have to accept it and go for it,and their bikes are adjusted as much as possible for high speed performance and fast cornering forces.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/26/2012 @ 11:53 AM *

Thanks Rook...do you get that when you're on the track?

LOL Oh --PHUCH NO!! That would be time for me to to head into the off track lane to go clean my leathers and put an aspirin under my tongue just in case.... LOL

No, we do have a road course track around here that actually has a jump but for the most part BFR is very flat. It's an old farm field. Road America is sorta nationally known for its downhill corners but in the vids I have seen it looks pretty flat for the most part. No sudden rises like you see in the TT. I did loft the front off a bump on a back road one time, shifting right as a I crested. That was a surprise enough but no wiggle and not full throttle. I imagine it is the power those TT bikes have + they are very light and short wheel based. I know they have special engine work done to turn a stock motor into a race motor so they must be making at least 185 whp with the 1 liter, i would think.

Or do they just have to accept it and go for it,and their bikes are adjusted as much as possible for high speed performance and fast cornering forces.

I think you said it right there. They are playing the give and take game. You sacrifice stability in the extreme moments of the race for light weight and cornering and accelleration. They prolly have it dialed right where they want it to be as fast as it can be without getting too insanely dangerous. I'm sure the GP bikes are stronger but AFAIK, what they run is nothing close to a stock motor. It's not even available if you wanted to buy one from the factory. You would need to build it yourself and run it on a very smooth track for one race. Then rebuild / replace it like they do in the BIG TIME.

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There's a couple of places there where yes,they're(some of em)are getting very far off the center line.....on the really tight stuff...and slower speeds.You don't see them doing that on the faster stuff.The faster stuff...they're keeping their bodies more in the center of the bike and using their leg as a windbreak.That's what it looks like to me.At those speeds...that amount of disruption in the airflow will cause a considerable amount of inside force...especially on a lighter bike.

I have seen enough TT and read enough interview to keep thinking that they do hang off, more on slower turns but also at high speed. The thing that they don't do as often as the motoGP guys is knee down. Guy Martin says he doesn't really have to change his pucks for races but do just to make Dainese happy. Beside when you think about it can you press down harder on the peg when you hang off or when you're centered on the seat. Just to get more leverage you'd have to hang off. Now because of the relatively low speed and easy roads us mere mortals ride on we can get away with it. In my book, on our modern bikes, don't expect to win any TT or motoGP not hanging off. One more thing that we failed to mention is that hanging off help turn the bike easier. This is why those guys seem to do it so effortlessly.

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One more thing that we failed to mention is that hanging off help turn the bike easier. This is why those guys seem to do it so effortlessly.

I already made the point at least one other time but in the end, it just feels better to most riders to hang off. It might feel safer or it might feel like the bike is more under control. If that is the way they learned and they are already the fastest riders, it doesn't make a lot of sense to relearn. They would lose races in the mean time.

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Here's some food for thought, I was on a long ride back I'n the twisties last Sunday. I was overtaking a group of Hardly's at a pretty good clip and caught them a few hundred meters before a right hand sweeper. I passed the group on the left side of the road and found I was carrying just a bit too much speed for the corner so I hung way off the inside to tighten up my line. I hit a huge bump just as I got it leaned and because I was way off the side, it almost launched me. Instead of smacking me square in the center of my body, the off center hit pitched me way off. I think hanging off is great on a track where you know what's coming up but should be used with a bit of discretion on an unfamiliar road, just my experience and .02, you can do as you like.

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What works on a track where there is 11 or 12 turns does not always work on the road, especially an unknown one. Best example, when racing you ride at or as near as possible to 100% of your capability. On the road you need a reserve of about 20% as a margin of safety. There are a huge number of unknown variables to contend with on a public road that you don't have on the track.

TT racing on public roads is a whole different animal compared to short track racing on a prepared course with maybe 11 or 12 turns. The Isle if Man has over 300 corners in 37 miles.

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Totally agree with that.Yep...track...smooth,predictable...repeatable.Street...uh oh."hanging off"...ya..that's what I meant before about getting 'off the side'....on a nice paved smoothish road...fine.But add some ripples or gouges,places where the asphalt has lifted out of the bed,hanging off becomes a liability...the faster you go.I don't corner near as well hanging out there and trying to steer with my torso off to one side.I've been using my outside leg and knee more and more lately to get the weight falling into the turn.But staying fairly centered in the seat...maybe off just some,but nothing wild.My turns seem to be getting smoother and faster doing it like that.The bike even if it nails a road thing,the weight and cg is still pretty much centered down the line of the chassis...so the weight is pushing straight into the tire angle/contact patch.Tipping the tank in...it's helping to keep things settled.Less moving around while she's gettin lined up and in her groove.Frontend's much more planted and steerable.

I've hit a few deep fast corners...hanging out cause I thought it would be more 'controllable'...wrong(for me anyway).Hitting a series of unseen dips or stutter bumps...ya....the bike wants to like....well...it wants OUT of that shit....and it tries to tell ya in it's own way.Which is 'kinda' dicey when yer rollin hard....and pushin hard.

Kruz...be careful will ya?I know I've been takin it easy on the straights and all...kinda just relax and roll....60...65...stuff like that...then,when I start to approach my curves(which I've ridden a billion times)...I open er up and pay more attention to where I'm at in the curve,what speed I'm hittin,and transitioning on my "markers'...you know...trees and stuff.Painted deals on the road.The slight little spot where they straightened out the paint line for just a second or two.This new bike is really one helluva handler once ya get the suspension dialed in....very very nice IMO.And the engine is so smooth,it's deceptive....so much kick there just waiting.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/8/2012 @ 1:19 PM *

Sounds like you're really enjoying the new ride Grn, have fun out there!

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