Lytnin...just ride how you feel...you don't HAVE to do any of he stuff mentioned...hell...you want to enjoy your ride...not be scared to death!The track day thing is an excellent piece of advice from the guys here who know what they're talking about with that.Can't HELP but give ya confidence and stuff knowing first hand what your bike is really able to do safetly under the right conditions.I'd say...go to the trackGet ya one of those instructors...I SHOULD..but I'm just not able to get away long enough to spend the several days there...and more than once.

IDK if you've done this...but get ya a couple of good 'techniques' books...Lenatch,or Roberts,or Code's.Read em...study the diagrams...then go practice...at YOUR level....All that 'Track' stuff...you can do at legal speeds...you don't have to be Mladin or Rossi.You might want to just remember...fear is a good thing...IF..it's used for the right thing.If it's getting in the way of your 'ability' to operate the bike...you might want to sit down and actually write about what's scaring you...read it....look at it....think about what you've written.Then ask youself...'how is this benefitting my riding experience'...you don't want to be riding with a bunch of negative thoughts crowding out you concerntration while yer out there.You can put that fear on the shelf.It's your life.You're the one running it.And I say that with a positive feeling for ya.I mean...what's really the worst that could happen out there riding...cruising....hitting the ground or getting hit by someone else.If some guy nails ya...and ya wind up in the hospital...it isn't gonna be 'forever' most likely...you'll be fine after the mend.Same with hitting the ground.The impact you probably won't really feel in a split second...maybe not at all...you'll go into shock IMMEDIATELY...which is a good thing...to a point.Just have fun.Don't let those head games ruin your life or riding.They can IF ya LET em.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/10/2012 @ 7:03 PM *

Lytnin when you go in to a corner try tucking than drop your shoulder in to the turn and keep little to no weight on your hand’s/wrist’s and let the bike do the work! and don’t worry about getting your butt off the seat yet!

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I really appreciate all the advice but fear still runs the show. I am ok on the long sweepers but anything tite and I am a loser. I have had my cousin in front of me on a CBR1000RR telling me to follow his lines and a girl behind me on a 600RR (track day queen)to see where I screw up at and when we stopped for lunch all they did was laff. I exited the road on a corner I knew I was not gonna make and rode thru a country front yard that must have been an 1/8th mile to the house. She told me later all I had to do was lean a little more and all would have been well.
Plain and simple fact is I cannot do back roads and I wave the cages by so I don't hold up traffic.

Take Care -- Bobby

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as we always say....

...and obviously it would be mre advantageous to ride a much smaller bike if you want to ride twisties.

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I am on my K1300GT beemer most of the time and it has spoiled me. The 14 I get to throttle happy on so back roads is very seldom do to wrist action stupidity. That means stupid fast in short straits and panty crapping trying to shut down before a corner.

My ZRX or the wifes 919 Honda are a little easier for me in the back roads but I will never even stay up with the slow guys. The good part is I have always made it home on 2 wheels going slow and the fast guys at least once every other ride one of them fall down and go boom.

Sometimes being slow is not all that bad

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If it's any consolation...I don't rail on backroads either.I had my fun totalling my first 14(07).Well..crunchin her up but good...poor bike.I restored her though....and never repeated(yet)the stupidity that I did.Well...maby DIFFERENT stupidity...but not like that...exactly...kinda....somewhat...okay...my vid...again...it's all right there...35:36.STUPID..boneheaded...LUCKY(again).

skiffman, PM replied to.

lytnin, why do I have the feeling you are pulling our legs?

Rook, the back sections of The Ridge are pretty tight and a guy on a 14 could cause a bit of "rubberbanding" in the faster groups... Then again, as we all know, it really just comes down to the rider. There's been a guy on a zrx that runs @ the front of the 200 level and mid 300 level everytime I've been out there.

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lytnin, why do I have the feeling you are pulling our legs?

I just love the way he makes fun of himself every time he has a chance lol
At least you know the roads lol Myself I have no choice but keeping up and when we have a sweeper, I don't wanna be the one spoiling his fun! That pressure had brought the best in me. And note: Don't try to follow liter or 600 lines, especially on descending turns, the 14 is too heavy for that. Last time I did it I had to lean the bike way pass my comfort zone. One more thing is that guys on liter or smaller barely move on their seats for certain turns so when you look at them you think you're coming to a easy turn and next thing you know....you're going through a country front yard lol

You should absolutely sign for a track day! I have been riding for about 2 years and can keep up with "4-5 years" riders but the guys who do track days loose me too easily. I think 1 year (let's say 12 sessions) on the track is equal to at least two years on the street. You can just tell the difference the trackdayers move like the Neo in the matrix... two different worlds lol

Some tracks have bumps like the one in Green's vid, whether you're tearing up or going slow it is something you need to get used to.... my suspensions setting is closer to track settings-stiff, I had to get used to keep pushing on the inside peg even when the forks unload. That's what I like about the isle of man. Granted they know the roads and where the bumps are but sometimes the quickest way is to go over them!

* Last updated by: dragking on 5/11/2012 @ 7:30 PM *

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I've thought about the hamging off and foot out was about balance. When the bike slides, leaned over, it's harder to control. Leaning off does two things. If slide and regrip, it's less likely to throw you up and over -highside. If it slips and continues, you're less likely to go down - lowside, because you're able to straighten up the bike. At very high speeds, slippage is less likely as lean angle and corner radii is less and line is relatively more important. Motogp tracks are safer than TT with runoff and obstacles minimized, allowing riders to push to the squirrely edge and over. The top TT riders are pushing too, just not to the very, very limit as do motogp and there are not the long corners. The leg out is to help balance as these guys are braking and turning-in at the very limit and beyond. Sometimes, they can't make the corner and need to staighten up and go wide. Not as much leeway in TT. Another way I've thought about it is when you do slip, often a leg goes out is the first reaction. And it's usually the inside leg. Why? To regain balance... Getting body to inside is useful on streets when traction is uncertain to keep upright, ie, in wet or where sand/rocks may be around bend, imo.

If slide and regrip, it's less likely to throw you up and over -highside. If it slips and continues, you're less likely to go down - lowside, because you're able to straighten up the bike.

I'm sure you have something there. counteracting a lowside might be easier if you were centered on the bike but if you wanted to straighten up the bike with minimal steering input, shifting your body weight would be the way to do it.

One thing I got from participating in this thread is that nobody, not even the pros, seem to know exactly why they hang off. To me, I feel more sensitivity to how the road and the bike are interacting. Also, I think I lean the bike less which is more stable.

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Any carrying weight lower and placed further inside counters opposing forces that makes the bike want to stand up and over (to outside of turn), as if the contact patches were locations of hinge or pivots of lean angle. This is different from countersteer, steering and bike direction, unless occurance of slide. Centrifugal forces are involved with the advantages of leaning off.

Countersteer creates lean, thus arc of motorcycle pathway in conunction with steering angle and geometry.

Or so, in my world:)

Sometimes when cornering, if bike leaned over not enough, it won't tighten radius enough. Only solution is to lean more or turn more. But often too little, too late. It's hard to get bike lean more if body is in line with lean angle. And because of centrifugal force it's even harder to get body to inside to weight bike over to lean. So in corner, the centrifugal on body above the bike wants to pull your upper body to outside of turn. And in order to offset this force, weight is placed on outside bar. It's now very hard to get weight to the inside and create more lean or turn. I think this is why it is so hard to get bike to turn more when running wide. Everything can be fine and suddenly begin to run wide and can't get more turn in. Just goes straight.

High speed sweepers can be easily done with knees in and not hanging off because less lean angle required and the corners are sweeping, don't require a fast lean to lean and there is clear view of corner radii.

IMO, it's really important to get your body to inside of bike. It can be misleading of what bike is doing because all other corners and times it's fine. But at certain angles and centrifugal forces, the upper body gets pulled to outside of turn, standing bike up and made worst because outside arm pushing on bar to keep upper body from not going to outside of turn. Gotta get butt over (just a bit, as long as getting core weight to inside) and turning body to counter steer inside to avoid. This also brings inside arm closer to bar and makes easier to push and getting more lean or turn.

Nothing wrong with cornering with knees in and body inline with bike angle but only if that angle is required for turn. If more angle, lean or turn required because of tightening radius, tightening line or misjudge of too high corner speed (and upper body pulled to outside of turn) it becomes really dicey to make it. Unless upper body already beginning commitment to lean more, which would be done, if expecting corner to tighten. But since not expecting, upper body is not committing and too upright. Only way to get upper body leaning towards inside of turn is to put a little pressure on outside bar. This is fine if not immediately wanting turn in and also tend to go a little wide just before turn as setting up. But as speed get higher, there is less time, centrifugal forces higher, and forward momentum is much harder to overcome.

Also, sometimes it's knee out. Doesn't mean you need to be dragging knee, touching asphalt or way out but it does get some weight to inside. With knee out, it's easier to get inside arm weight onto bar.

Don't want to see anyone running wide, especially at high speed.

I've ridden behind riders and watched their body positioning. When the pace is upped, if they are not leaning butt off to inside at all, I get worried. Because I can see that if they misjudge their corner speed or any other reason to tighten line, I can see that their upper body has no more way it can get over to inside. They sometimes don't understand this concept because they've never had a problem. But often when people go wide, they don't know why it happened.

I think leaning off (doesn't need be extreme) is also very important and applicable on street.

Well... in Twist of The Wrist 2 the DVD, the cornering guru himself, Keith Code makes the comment that nobody really knows why hanging off works but racers like it. Enough said, if it makes you feel better than hang off the inside as riding is all about confidence.

This is an old thread and I stand by the math, hanging way off makes only a small difference in lean but I think it does stabilize the bike by getting the center of mass lower. Any steering inputs from up high tends to destabilize the machine in a turn.

If you watch the Twist of the Wrist 2 video, pay close attention to the scene where the rider is on the "no steer bike". It's a ZX-6R with two sets of bars, one normal and an upper set that are fixed rigid. The rider tries to turn the "no steer bike" while hanging waaaaay off to the inside of the bike with almost no effect on the bikes steering or lean angle. Code then concludes that hang off has little or no effect on steering the bike but then contradicts himself later when he starts talking about hanging off in the corners. It either has a large effect or it doesn't, you certainly can't make the claim that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Since I started this thread almost a year ago, I've changed my mind about hang off and started hanging a cheek off and dropping down to the inside but not on every corner. It is comfortable and makes you feel safer when really cranking it over in a turn.

I think a lot of it comes down to if it makes you feel safer and less likely to go over the top in a high side. also it's easy to touch a knee down hanging off which is just a good way of gauging your lean angle.

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One thing about hanging off... It may FEEL like you are hanging off (a lot), but you probably aren't really hanging off as much as you think you are.

Here is one of the best riders I know -- Shane Turpin. He is hanging off:

Another view:

He is a pretty good rider. He rode in WSBK at Miller this year:

For my own riding, I've been encouraged to hang off more. I've been working on that, and to me it FEELS like I'm hanging off just like Shane, but NO WAY -- not even REMOTELY close:

[This has nothing to do with street riding, of course... I'm just saying you probably aren't hanging off as much as you think you are.] -bg

* Last updated by: bgordon on 12/19/2012 @ 3:22 PM *

It may FEEL like you are hanging off (a lot), but you probably aren't really hanging off as much as you think you are.

Noticed that about myself. Hardly at all.

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The Kinda of hanging off Turpin is doing is hard to do. To go that fast around a corner you have to hang off so much that you initially feel like the bike and you are following different trajectories. It's a weird feeling. Especially since during high stress scenario you instincts urge to put your body in line with the bike. It comes back to the instinct of not wanting to get too close to the asphalt while going fast. Our senses "over-perceive" how close we are. Pictures help.

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"To go that fast around a corner you have to hang off so much"...we don't know how fast he's taking that turn.For all we know...he may actually be going slower than his other turns.?????That's why I asked several times in these kind of threads.."How fast were you going"...I never have gotten a straight answer.It's kind of important to know when looking(at a picture of) a turn,and the radius,and the lean just how fast a guy's going to need that kind of angle.Trying to replicate some of these extreme positions under the wrong circumstances could get a guy hurt very quickly.Especially with a street bike and street tires.He's also on a much lighter machine than a 14 I would guess...

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/19/2012 @ 11:59 PM *

...we don't know how fast he's taking that turn.For all we know...he may actually be going slower than his other turns.?????

Good point, Grn. I would imagine he is moving pretty quick in relation to how ever tight that corner is and definitely got the bike leaned almost as far as it will go. I don't see why some other riders might not take the same corner going faster and hanging off less.

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I saw this video here a while back...a guy 'hanging off' on a 14...in a parking lot...showing it wasn't 'necessarily' related to speed.He had his knee all the way down...leaned in...at around 15 mph...figure 8's he was doing.But I agree Rook...he's most likely railin that corner pretty good.You get into a rhythm on the track(I'm guessing).You have one way traffic.Hopefully...nothing jumps out at you from the side.Switching back and forth on your literbike...you can get drastic leans.On the street...that's hard to get away with...especially on a bike as large and heavy as a 14.You have a hard time developing a rhythm when you don't know really what you're gonna encounter just into that next curve.And if you call it wrong...you may be a hood ornament.

That yellowwolf video is truly amazing..how he whips his Goldwing around.He must ride that road a billion times a year!He's not that I could see hanging off either.Yet he makes those fast twisties look like child's play.That guy on the camera bike...he has a tad bit of difficulty keeping up...and his is a lot lighter.(?)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/20/2012 @ 6:40 AM *

At 1:03.....hanging off....;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/20/2012 @ 7:29 AM *

The MotoGP boyz and WSBK guyz are not running anything close to what we do on a road bike in the way of tires. You can bet when they're going for big lean they have humungously sticky rubber, almost like flypaper and the bikes are 100 lbs lighter than what we ride, 200 lbs if you're comparing to a ZX-14.

A lot of those shots are done on race qualifier tires, they're so soft that they only hold up a couple laps. You can't compare the conditions they operate under to ours on the road. The IOM TT is closer, still sticky race spec tires but they don't get carried away with crazy lean angles as was pointed out earlier, you go down in the TT, you may die. They have to leave some room for error in there.

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* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/20/2012 @ 8:17 AM *

we don't know how fast he's taking that turn.For all we know...he may actually be going slower than his other turns.?????That's why I asked several times in these kind of threads.."How fast were you going".

Grn:

I don't know if it would help at all knowing how fast in mph he is going around that turn. You would have to know what's before the turn and what's after it (is it an entry corner or an exit corner?), what is the camber, etc. -- or your would have to know how fast YOU were going through the same turn.

I can tell you that I'm going faster than I ever thought possible, and that Shane is going 10-20 MPH FASTER THAN THAT around a fairly tight corner. He once wore my pack containing a GPS unit and recorder and we got a track map on him for a couple of laps.

And yes, we are on race tires -- they are SWEET, but just a bit pricey ($478 a set this year)! They last 3 or 4 track days for me; 1 or 2 for the really fast guys.

Hope you are doing well... -bg

Thanks Bg...doing okay here.Asking about the speed...only for 'getting and idea' as to what I'm seeing in the pics.You know on the street...most corners can be taken at at least twice the posted limit.Except for those 15,10...those ones will get ya if you don't follow the speeds.Say that gent above in your pic...say he's leaned like that...and only running 40 mph...that says alot about what to expect in a turn like that...and at 40mph.That's all I'm really curious about.I mean...you know me..I've hit some big fast curves in triple digits...but never hung off like that guys doin...Or leaned like that either in triple digits....

we don't know how fast he's taking that turn.For all we know...he may actually be going slower than his other turns.????

He's going fast for sure. His maximizing body position and bike lean angle. In a slow corner you just do one of the two: usually body position so the bike can stay as upright as possible. Another tell tell sign is his head position: he's kinda looking down not far ahead, there is a similar shot of Stoner (Kruz probably knows the one I'm talking about) and he's hauling ass! I wouldn't be surprised if he was drifting a couple of feet (first picture).

Trying to replicate some of these extreme positions under the wrong circumstances could get a guy hurt very quickly.Especially with a street bike and street tires.He's also on a much lighter machine than a 14 I would guess...

You right the 14 wasn't engineered for that but it's not the bike. You should have said: "trying to replicate some of these extreme positions with less rider skills could get a guy hurt very quickly".

I have seen videos (there are tons made by mickeymouse) of the same Mulholland corner and guys were dragging elbows on R1's and GXSR on STREET TIRES. We're all quick to blame the equipment (I know I do it to) especially now that thanks to technology you can have access to what the pros use but really us as riders set our own limits most of the time.

A lot of those shots are done on race qualifier tires, they're so soft that they only hold up a couple laps. You can't compare the conditions they operate under to ours on the road. The IOM TT is closer, still sticky race spec tires but they don't get carried away with crazy lean angles as was pointed out earlier, you go down in the TT, you may die. They have to leave some room for error in there.

It's true but also their bikes are rider to ride. They're lighter but have more clearance so more lean angle etc.
As far as the TT guys, I don't think they leave more room than closed circuit guys. Just look at the stats (crashes) they go down as much. 2 deaths a year. Guy had like 3-4 crashes 2 years ago if you include practice and race. He's probably a top 5 rider so I'd compare with Cal Crutchlow who has had about the same number of crashes. Also the TT is not ridden like a close circuit. It's all about that top speed while close circuit is more about stop and go, slowing to go fast on the exit. You would need a serious long sweeper to knee down while maintaining a speed of 150. On a closed circuit, you slow down put the bike on your knee and shoot out.

Also just to add to my point: Guy wont the Ulster GP this year. He was using Pirelli tire while everybody else had Dunlops I believe. The funny fact: Pirelli didn't make a matching front tire so he used a "regular" front and won. First rider to win on Pirelli or it could be the other way around. I'm not sure but you get the point.

* Last updated by: dragking on 12/20/2012 @ 1:43 PM *

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