I am just averse to having anyone touch my stuff. Case in point, I have a local shop mount my tires and spin balance, costs $27 with tire disposal fee if I bring them the wheel. They have never failed yet to scratch my rims somewhere, I've just come to accept that they don't really care about your stuff and mounting a tire is pretty easy compared to some jobs when you have the tire changing machine. You just have to care and take the extra effort to protect the rim, it's not rocket science!

I had the same experience at my dealereship. Glad I never took the bike in for any other service. I do my own tires from here on in like everything else. Yes, since getting a simple tire changer stand, I see all it takes is care to place some kind of cushion between the wheel and the changer (if there is not a cushion fitted to the changer already). No way I would let that shop do a water pump job. I'd much rather have the bike sit in my garage for a week or two if took that long to do it right by myself.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/12/2013 @ 8:55 AM *

My main reason for joining here was to gain knowledge of my machine and keep up my unbroken record of over 40 years without taking a bike to a shop. I even went back to changing my own tires after farming that out for a while.

Of course, the cryptic videos with the weird music and wire circlips stuck into the heads of voodoo dolls are juat a bonus.

If you want to be signed off on 3 variables without replacing all the parts, money is no object, then I would keep the mantra... "If we rub both hands together which hand stayed cold?" If we apply that to each part that interfaces, or is used as the seal and mech seal as an example... "Which valley didn't occur?"

So the mantra is:

1. A New Shaft; and whatever seal rides on it. So there is no question of bluing or the valley effect. However, I think I have the shafts placed at a senior moment. It might be the 13107A shaft that is sliding thru both the mech seal and oil seal?

It also looks like the same diameter of the A-shaft in question, because of the cir-clip diameter? I'm guessing the slotted end is the same diameter looks like? And since we are on the cir-clip, notice the position of the thrust side. Thrust side means the sharp side of the cir-clip has to be in a position; if say I pushed the rounded side instead? I want the cut side to be pushing at that flat to flat. If I turned the clip to the round side, this thrust can run up the round and pop out. Make sense you find a lot of cir-clips in the transmission and have to figure out direction and all that?

2. New seals; and looking at it again, it looks like the only way to change the oil seal is to get the mech seal out of the way. So if the mech seal was leaking, it would be a waste not to change the oil seal and not destroy one more mech seal, because now you have an oil leak at the seep hole 2k down the road say.

3. Housing covers; and yes, this completes the 3 parts. But this third one is too into anal territory no matter if you own the bank. Even if you nicked the mech seal's wall, the seal is going to cover that blem by the goop walking up under the extended cap. So you can salvage the covers no problem with this example; if you clean up your nicks meaning. I'm just saying that you can get away with a lot of parts, sans the two seals you need for sure. We keep the lips moving over parts and if the obvious is not there, back in she goes. You tell me I can't seal up an old flat o-ring [without memory], using a little dab-ill-do-ya of liquid science?

So if you have the eyes, the lips, the right tools, the careful as you go attitude, you can't get anymore backyard a fix than this. And oh btw, I was on a tear all this time. I was knocking on the ECU's door and no one would let me in. No one I could ask. Then all of a sudden it hit me. All that hubshit confusion I put myself thru was also you reading some of that crap. Some could walk it, others could not. It's uselesshit in other words. I put myself thru 3 bikes [2 opened, 1 closed loop] just to figure out Ivan's deal.

I think I got the gist of it say. Enough to be dangerousay.

1. A New Shaft; and whatever seal rides on it. So there is no question of bluing or the valley effect. However, I think I have the shafts placed at a senior moment. It might be the 13107A shaft that is sliding thru both the mech seal and oil seal?

Hub I did order the 13107A shaft, it looks like the one that interfaces with both seals. Notice 13107 is the only one missing in the group photo? It's driven off 59051, the pump drive gear, so stays in the engine. How you'd change that one without splitting the case is beyond me.

It's not that money is no object, I just don't want to take any chances on this and yes, I probably did get a tad anal ordering the new pump housing. That part alone was 50% of the entire bill, $145.76 total damage with free shipping.
I will pay extra close attention to circlip orientation on re-assembly.

It's all good though, seeing how I can't find anyone else with an '09-'12 that's had this failure, I can't be sure of the culprit, new parts may ease my mind.

Thanks for all of your help on this, can't wait to get my baby Ninja back on the road!

Yes, since getting a simple tire changer stand, I see all it takes is care to place some kind of cushion between the wheel and the changer (if there is not a cushion fitted to the changer already).

How are you balancing the wheel/tire assembly?

Take it to the dealer, $350 to $450 easily with parts and labor (Hub what is your estimate), big hassle taking the bike over to the shop to drop off and then arrange to get over there to pick it up.

How are you balancing the wheel/tire assembly?

remove/mount with this

and these.

pop beads with this

balance with this

and these.

done

Yes, it's an investment but once you do it a few times it's like changing oil.

Not to get too anal, but that's static balancing, my guy dynamically balances the wheels, ask the Hub about the difference.

I've heard of people losing weights and can't tell the dif. Balance is not all that important on a MC. I did it because those stands can be purchased cheasp or even made with ordinary tools. I had my wheel dynamically balanced last time too. Guess what else...removed the rotors and sprocket so they wpould not get damaged.....and they balanced the wheels w/out. I stuck the discs back on and rode it. I doubt it was balanced after that. Still hit 160 at least once on those tires. Never noticed anythingthe least bit strange....although I did get a flat on the rear when it was worn way down. Come to think of it, I rode the bike 200 miles stopping to air up on that flat. Now that I noticed some weird tire performance with. Do not try at home.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/12/2013 @ 8:17 PM *

I stopped using weights altogether on my 07 for several seasons....it stayed smooth as could be without em...not that every bike will do that...but it worked on mine?

Brian makes very decent videos. Articulate, covers all corners. If I see that tire pulling those weights back up to 12 o'clock, that is pretty sensitive don't you think? I think mother nature knows how to balance a tire on a few bearings. I'd spend that dynamic money on the static stand.

I've even balanced my rear sprocket carrier.

I slung the balance weights on the rear tire of my ZX-10R and could barely hang on to the handlebars it vibrated so badly. Luck of the draw, some tires are pretty well balanced straight from the factory others not so much, I prefer to balance.

HubMeister, there is a soft rubber seal and washer on the back of the impeller according to the service manual. It is not shown as a seperate item in the IPC breakdown on the waterpump assembly and apparently comes with the impeller. It looks like a static seal, at least that's what I'm guessing.

Do you recall seeing this seal and what is it's purpose? I'm trying to change everything in there that might be causing the leak but not sure if it's worth ordering a new impeller to get that seal.

Your thoughts?

It's possible the mech seal comes in a set, and that rubber insert w/porcelain washer, may be in the kit? Since there is no showing of the porcelain or the rubber holder that inserts behind the pump blade. All they are saying is that it is only an impeller and nothing saying w/washer and seal. So my assumption is it comes complete in the seal kit if mem serves?

http://www.garth285.com/manuals/05-06%20ZX6r%20Service%20Manual.pdf

Hubster, Chapter 4-10, good photo of the mystery impeller seal.

http://industrialsupermarket.in/products/mechanical_seal/Mechanical-Seals3.jpg

For assembly: install the rubber cage in the impeller. Then install the porcelain washer in any direction.
For disassembly: Pull the washer out first, then washer holder or cage. Make sure surface is flush and debris-less inside the impeller.

Once the rubber lands flat, the washer is inserted, run the impeller out in front of you. Make sure the horizon of the the porcelain washer is horizontal to the impeller. Every little angle helps so you are square to that spring'd sealing washer and that seal being 90° to the porcelain.

* Last updated by: Hub on 2/13/2013 @ 7:43 AM *

All they are saying is that it is only an impeller and nothing saying w/washer and seal. So my assumption is it comes complete in the seal kit if mem serves?

Comes with the mechanical seal? I looked at that IPC drawing and can't tell for sure. You must be right though or they would list it as a seperate part from the impeller. Best thing to do is wait until the parts arrive, should be early next week and see what I have.

We were right on that R/H shaft, you have to pull the clutch to get at the attaching bolt for R&R. The L/H shaft, the one I ordered is the one that the seals ride on.

Normal leak rates range between immeasurably small to steady drips or temporary to even small steams. Some seals leak some of the time, some seals never leak (measurably), and some leak all the time. Leakage patterns can be constant, progressive or erratic in nature.

If this is true and a mechanical seal can have a "temporary" stream of leakage or "erratic" leaks, maybe this thing would have settled down and fixed itself? I'm not buying that though, once a seal starts leaking, it's been my experience it just gets worse (progressive failure).

Years ago, most pump shafts were sealed using rings of soft packing, compressed by a packing gland, but this type of shaft seal required a fair amount of leakage just to lubricate the packing and keep it cool. Then came the development of the “mechanical seal,” which accomplishes the job of restraining product leakage around the pump shaft with two very flat surfaces (one stationary and one rotating). Even though these mechanical seal faces also require some (very small) leakage across the faces, to form a hydrodynamic film, this leakage normally evaporates and is not noticeable. Most pump shafts today are sealed by means of mechanical seals. However, because of the delicate components used for this new sealing method, mechanical seal failures are the greatest cause of pump down time. This begs for a better understanding of this seal type and its application.

Ok, still not sure why they didn't specify the simple but tried and true double lip, chevron seal like they do on the oil side but maybe the mechanical seal has been found to be more reliable in service for the water application?

I'm convinced now that the porcelain washer and rubber cup that fit the impeller backside come with the seal kit. The rubber is not a seal per se, it allows the porcelain washer on the impeller to run perfectly true with it's lapped mating surface on the stationary side of the seal. It is impossible in practice to acheieve perfect perpendicularity of the seal surfaces so you must have something in there with "give" to allow the lapped surfaces to align perfectly.

Hubster, this stuff is starting to make sense now...imagine that!

Pretty cleaver shit is this is a piggyback working out two pump systems on one shaft. Then the next idea was to [separate both shaft's liquids] sort of speak. I've seen impellers etched to the point of replacement. Maybe 15% to 20% blade sweep was missing. A little off this blade, some off this; a bunch of deterioration on one blade after the other.

* Last updated by: Hub on 2/13/2013 @ 10:33 AM *

Chapter 4-10 and your senior moment is to take a moment and see how the oil seal design is placed. If you were not paying attention, the book shows you the direction of the seal. You would be looking at it more like the shift shaft or counter shaft seal. It says to have the letters facing you as your next step is to drive the mech seal in.

And by the time you see this, Kruz, I mean the depth of the mech seal housing, you are going to see how if you follow the careful steps keeping that wall nick free, and the surface the lip lands on, the mech seal's depth is not that deep. It's like a few whacks and you're done.

So if the blowout of the shop manual page starts to letter a few parts, meaning, L for lube or R for replace, the book called the steps you miss one. So now you have backup for backup. You question a part, meaning, go to the page and see if the manual says R and then there is no question.

Right? Lube it together were told. Replace it or you have no one to blame, etc. And if I is for inspect, then it shows you how far that part will work if it is within this spec window. If not, R it is.

Hubster, I am going to put in a ride on the 6R this afternoon to test a theory. Mechanical seals can pick up debris between the lapped mating surfaces and experience a temporary increase in rates of seal weepage. Another reason for the weep hole? What am I leaking, oil or coolant? if it's oil then we know the culprit, if it's coolant then it's the mech seal.
I was pretty sure what I saw was oil on the floor but there wasn't much of it to work with and it appeared to be kind of light for dirty oil. I can't be positive until I get a good clean sample from the peep hole. 1500 mile Rotella is usually dark brown or black, this seemed more clear but viscosities are going to be similiar, Rotella is 5W cold, very thin. What if I ride today and the leakage stops and it was the mechanical seal, e.g. coolant?
Once a chevron seal leaks it's only going to get worse, according to what I've read on mechanical seals they may experience temporary leakage and then settle down...debris? Maybe I ordered the pump parts to early...maybe I'm full of @%$#, we'll see after todays ride.

Stay tuned Hubmeister!

Spray brake clean up the weep hole when you get back. Lay an old cookie spray pan down so you can capture either liquid. The brake clean is going to evaporate. The oil and coolant won't so if you rather clean the weep hole first; the bike being cold before you go out oops [too late]; and then come back; and if someone is going to look clean; it will be the more golden oil; a greener green or is that pink in color; not a combo of that shaft whipping up dust; and you can't tell who was old and who is new?

We more we understand we want to narrow down the diagnostic move on a cleaner weep hole, then with contact/brake clean to see the obvious one is looking clean out the weep hole?

No water pump bodies in the states, on back order. I told them to cancel the body and ship everything else today.

Power to the peepholes....oh my gosh, I'm starting to sound like Hub...

I think the Hub and I are still mystified about your impeller cover looking so dark. Personally, I think its been etched by chemical attack (acid).

Hagrid, I think you missed something, that was an '08 waterpump sent to me by a guy on ZX6R.com. Mine is still in one piece.

HubsterMeister update. Rode 30 minutes tonight and lower cowl is dry. Pump overhaul parts shipped this afternoon sans the back ordered pump body.

Either way I'm covered, if it starts leaking again I'll pull it apart and rebuild, if not, I'm out about $70 in parts I can't use. It's all good though, I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em than the the other way around.

This has been an interesting learning experience if nothing else.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/13/2013 @ 6:12 PM *