This has nothing to do with a ZX-14 but it is a Kawasaki issue. My ZX6R is pissin what appears to be oil out of the waterpump weephole.

Bike has only 7000 miles and a check on ZX6R.com turns up no one else with this problem on an '09-'12 model. New oil seal, mechanical seal, cover and base O-rings are only about $25 and a few hours time to replace.

My question is why? I don't want to go to all of the trouble to change this stuff to have it happen again in a few thousand miles.

Possibilities:

Kawi messed up building up the water pump, installed a pump seal wrong, rolled the seal lip etc.....not likely.

Excessive end play, wobble, in the pump shaft. Burr or wear groove, out of round shaft etc.

What sayest thou Hubster and please speak English, my Hubanese is not good.

Should I just replace everything?

Yes. Replace everything as a unit. My guess is sitting? Did you change coolant every year weather you hit the mileage first or the year plays out?; whichever comes first.

1. Mech Seal: This may have the face of this side damaged or cracked. The porcelain washer is pretty much bulletproof. So either the spring collapsed that pushes that seal at the end of the spring, which I doubt it.

2. The other is the oil seal may have polished a groove, or the coolant etched the shaft? This is where you call the ball about changing just the seal and hope for the best.

3. Th shaft is the other part you may need to change out and those, besides the gasket and oil are pretty much the normal fix if all look heading in that direction.

And the trick to installing the mech seal is to use a socket and be careful not to damage the sprung side of that seal sitting on that spring.

see now this is why I missed this guy so much...well, he's general kick in the pants but great technical advice too.

My guess is sitting? Did you change coolant every year weather you hit the mileage first or the year plays out?; whichever comes first.

Well, 7000 miles since I bought it in May of '10, not exactly high mileage. Expand on this thought further please as there are a lot of older bikes with very low mileage I see all the time on Cycle Trader, Craig's List etc. that don't have bad waterpumps. Very likely if the owner didn't have time to ride it he most likely didn't have time to change coolant...Yes or No?

Also it seems to be leaking from the oil seal side not the coolant side of the seal. From what I can make of the parts book breakdown, there is a chamber between the two with the weephole at bottom so in theory oil should not contact the coolant seal and coolant should not contact the oil seal. Yes or No?

1. Mech Seal: This may have the face of this side damaged or cracked. The porcelain washer is pretty much bulletproof. So either the spring collapsed that pushes that seal at the end of the spring, which I doubt it.

Please explain the mechanical seal a little better, until I can actually hold one in my hand and look at it, the theory is vague. What does the porcelain washer do, it appears that it is on the back side of the pump impeller?

The other is the oil seal may have polished a groove, or the coolant etched the shaft? This is where you call the ball about changing just the seal and hope for the best.

I was thinking of that possibility too but in 7000 miles? I've seen Honda Goldwings with over 300,000 miles on the original water pump but then again, you're right about not riding this bike much. With five in the garage, maybe once, twice a week.

@BG...... good call bringing the HubMeister back on line, he's the only person who has the experience to talk the talk on some of this stuff. He's probably seen a million of these water pump failures so first person I thought to ask about it.

see now this is why I missed this guy so much...well, he's general kick in the pants but great technical advice too.

+1

@BG...... good call bringing the HubMeister back on line, he's the only person who has the experience to talk the talk on some of this stuff. He's probably seen a million of these water pump failures so first person I thought to ask about it.

Yes, he was greatly missed. -bg

Now if we can just get him to behave.......

http://industrialsupermarket.in/products/mechanical_seal/Mechanical-Seals3.jpg

The porcelain ring is the cooler. It can take the heat away. The water is the lube. The spring stays stationary if I recall? The porcelain spins. Inside the spring is that seal around the [gray] shaft.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Rotating_mechanical_seal-3D_135.png

Exploiting The Color Code:

Oil pump and coolant shaft ~ The seal inside the spring ring is going to wear a groove at both ends say. One will be the water pump and that seal inside that spring. The other is the oil seal setting a groove. Sitting dry, it could tear/wrinkle/crack/leak from the shinny part made by normal or accelerated wear.

coolant ~ That's where the mech sealer comes in catching that leak. We are on the coolant side moving left to the oil side.

The porcelain ring and rubber sealer ~ Better seen leaning on the spring with the porcelain ring inside its rubber boot. I believe the porcelain spins, the spring is hammered in the case and is stationary. Either face could leak, meet and greet the weep hole.

Spring'd Ring ~ This is the main body sort of. This is being pushed against the porcelain ring and mechanically seals it via a spinning environment.

engine oil ~ I took the liberty of the colors so you can visually see the two halves of liquids separated by the mechanical seal.

Below is what is common in a bike scenario. See the sealer around the body? You take a socket just big enough to go over the lip of the body, and away from that ring's face. Rawhide mallet (skilled) or a press is the other way. With a press it's (safe/can warm case) where you can hold it steady and watch it enter square in the case.

http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/950886/9710395/0/1247461706/mechanical_seal.jpg

* Last updated by: Hub on 2/11/2013 @ 9:19 AM *

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2009-kawasaki-ninja-zx-6r-zx600r9f/o/m148811#sch638016

OK Hub, please take a look at the link for the waterpump/oil pump assembly and tell me what you would order knowing the facts as stated.

I'm thinking at a minimum I would need:

49063 Mechanical Seal
92049 Oil Seal
92055A Water Pump cover Seal
92055B Water Pump Housing Seal

Do you think that will do it or do I need to replace the two shafts and Water Pump Housing?

Interesting discourse here Hub, I'm learning something I didn't know. According to this article, mechanical seals can and do exhibit small rates of leakage.

few facts about the leakage (and wear) behavior of contacting mechanical seals:
It is essential for proper lubrication and wear of the faces.
Normal leak rates range between immeasurably small to steady drips or temporary to even small steams. Some seals leak some of the time, some seals never leak (measurably), and some leak all the time. Leakage patterns can be constant, progressive or erratic in nature.
It can be in liquid, gaseous and/or solid state.
Successful contacting seals tend to have very low wear rates and low leakage rates.
Some forms of contact is necessary for low leakage rates. Non-contacting or “full lift off” seals (hydrostatic or hydrodynamic tend to have visible, sizeably larger leakage rates.
The large majority of mechanical seals never wear out and are removed from service for some other reason.
Seal failures occur for a wide range of reasons. Some failures occur as an
interaction with the tribology of the interface.
Next: Effective forces in a mechanical seal

Hub, you could have made this movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24uWL6f8K4

Ok Hub, I get it but I'm still missing something here. This seems like a very complicated way of sealing the water pump chamber. A simple, double chevron sliding contact seal is used on the oil side to seal the pump shaft, why not use another high temperature double chevron seal on the water side and eliminate the complex mechanical seal entirely? Just thinking out loud.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/11/2013 @ 12:32 PM *

13107 pump shaft
92022 sealing washer
92055B o-ring cover
92055A pump o-ring
92049 oil pump seal
49063 mech seal
480 cir-clip

Here is the list. The pump shaft is probably the only salvageable part with a visual inspection. The rest are usually mandatory, where rubber is squeezed flat, has no push memory to keep any seal liquid tight. It might be the mechanical seal is a cheaper production part to have in the bike. I haven't seen a change in that design since the very first one I replaced decades ago. And too, they are super dependable (cough) when they don't leak.

BG, can I get an assist here re-sizing this pic to fit the screen? Thanks!

This is the ZX-6R oil pump and coolant pump. The oil seal and mechanical seal have already been removed from the pump chamber housing in the lower part of the picture.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/11/2013 @ 2:06 PM *

Man, that is some dirty coolant or something? That may have deteriorated the rubber seal or again, tear factor sitting in that stuff. Is that coolant-waterwetter stuff?

Hubster the mechanical seal is $13.87, the oil seal is $4.00. I ordered both of course but there is another reason they do the mechanical seal other than cost effect.

I took a risk and didn't get the shaft but did get both seals and cover and housing gaskets.

Temperature? Doubtful, the oil temp limit on our aircraft engines are substantially higher than the max allowable coolant temp, 140C vs 105C.

Did you watch that movie on mechanical seals with the mime guy? Priceless, he just needs some hand puppets and it could be a Hubster Production.

Man, that is some dirty coolant or something? That may have deteriorated the rubber seal or again, tear factor sitting in that stuff. Is that coolant-waterwetter stuff?

Don't know, that is an '08 ZX-6R, same pump assembly as my '09, a guy on the forum posted in response to my questions on the water pump failure. His pump did not fail, he had coolant in his oil from a failed oil/water heat exchanger and apparently misdiagnosed. He said getting the mechanical seal out is a certified bitch. The book says to use a drift and deadblow hammer and work around it carefully without scoring the seal bore. How did you do it?

Look at the scoring on his shaft, seal area?

That was a very well thought out way to show leak after leak and how to solve it. Yes, he was missing a prop. I would have shown Cody leaking someplace, somehow, you knowhere.

No, that shaft has normal wear. It's when you can see a valley begin or can feel it on the shaft area or the line the seal lip rides on. That's when you take that shaft to your lips and check for the dip down. Short of a precision measuring tool, this is your more obvious check by hand and eye as well. If it passes or say the shaft was no longer available I sort of [loophole setting] the seal from being seated all the way, or push the shaft farther out so the lips of the seal rides on a new surface, away from the valley.

I use a concrete or stone kind of chisel. It's tiny. I grind it to a razor's edge. Catch the lip of that steel cage and push the lip to the center. In other words, implode the mechanical cage away from the machined out wall. So as to have that intact and no way of touching its vertical surfaces.

That's what the book meant so as to save the wall for the new sealer to cut thru. Also, no gouge mark to stop the cage from entering into that tolerance fit as it is. So that pocket the mech seal sits in is paramount you spend the money on a special tool you may only use once or twice.

I meant the gouge will cut thru the sealer and cause a leak. The gouge does the action twofold is why you have to now remove the sealer off the wall. Usually brake clean will melt it or try WD. The less metal material you remove the tighter the seal. And the old sealer will be pushed down under the new cage and keep the whole cage raised, not squeeze the sealer under the lip.

That inner tube prop is part of proper sealing under that lip. Nothing to travel up a gouged line and leak out under pressure. So the water pressure is up against that seal around the shaft, and the oil pressure is heading up tunnels and out camshafts. But once under pressure, that oil seal lip is being pressed down upon. More pressure than say crankcase pressure on a shift seal or counter shaft seal.

You can begin to see that shaft wearing out. Those blue burn marks, or polished shadows where the seals ride? Keep an eye on that area.

Hub, the shaft turns on plain bearing surface in the pump housing bore yes? Any wear in that shaft bore and the shaft could wobble....oil seal lip has memory..voila oil leak.

You're making me think here. Maybe I should go ahead and order the pump housing, $50 and the impeller shaft, $27, outboard section. Now I can press seals into a clean bore, no scratches and the shaft bore is tight around the new shaft.

I can build the new pump up before pulling everything apart and then just install the new stuff. We're talking just over $100.

I'm curious why you gave the P/N to replace for the inboard section of shaft, RH, there are two sections, one shown I believe is the LH or impeller side. Which shaft does the oil seal ride on?
That's the one I want to replace, yes?

Kruz, Parts page wise, to see if the unit comes complete, the housing will come empty. If there is a square box around the pump and one part number showing all the parts that come in it, I don't think I saw the parts page like that? So I am more speaking anally, where yes, if you gouge it, clean it up and all is well.

Yes, you can get away with replacing the mech seal, not clean a thing and toss the new one back in? Probably would work fine. I'm just saying that if you do the job, do it right. So what I'd do first is to yank the mech seal out, see if you salvaged the pump body? I keep the wallet closed for now and go from there.

Bloody Hell Hub yer speaking English mate lol I new ya new yer tech stuff but hell ya used to confuse us with yer allien lingo lol so still

Bloody Hell Hub yer speaking English mate lol I new ya new yer tech stuff but hell ya used to confuse us with yer allien lingo lol so still

Yes, agreed Bean, some of this stuff is difficult enough already without adding to the confusion. The "New Hub" is a reinvented Hub, much more understandable now on the tech talk, I actually got all of that last discourse!

A kindler, gentler, dare I say it but even mellower Hub, is it possible?

Kruz, Parts page wise, to see if the unit comes complete, the housing will come empty. If there is a square box around the pump and one part number showing all the parts that come in it, I don't think I saw the parts page like that?

Right, the pump housing is a bare assembly, will have to be built up with the two new seals and four alignment dowel pins. Other than the shaft and two gaskets, everything else looks reuseable. With a new housing, new impeller shaft, new seals and gaskets, all wear parts are new, just reuse the old cover, pump impeller, hardware and oil pump gerotor .

That guy over on ZX-6r.com posting that the Mech seal was a bitch on removal (his words) got me wondering. What is his level of mechanical mastery? I've known guys that were so clueless, changing their own oil was beyond their technical skill level. Maybe the Mech Seal is an easy removal, maybe not, IDK.

I want to do this in one shot, keep riding the bike until the rebuild parts arrive and then pull it down and exchange the goods, one day turn around. If I score the seal bore, then bike is scattered across the garage for a week waiting on more parts. If I order new housing and build up parts straight from the git go, it should be an easier build, no surprises. Money is not an issue, this is costing literally hundreds less than taking it in to Kawi and I can control the quality of the build, something I can't do if I let a stranger put his paws on it. Thoughts?

If money isn't a consideration, purchase new where any question on viability remains.

Obviously seals are one time use. But if the impeller shaft sealing area has you second-guessing, and you have the $$$, buy it.

Personally, if I can catch my fingernail on the shaft, I resurface or replace. I hate doing any job twice.

Just ordered everything new, about $140 total damage. I'm with you Hagrid, this is going to be an all day job by the time I drain coolant and engine oil, tear pump down, build it back up, install new oil filter, reservice oil and cooling systems and bleed the cooling system.

If I can do this once and not have to deal with it again then it's worth $150 to me. Take it to the dealer, $350 to $450 easily with parts and labor (Hub what is your estimate), big hassle taking the bike over to the shop to drop off and then arrange to get over there to pick it up. Bike gone for one to two weeks and is the tech going to do the same meticulous work you would do? I am just averse to having anyone touch my stuff. Case in point, I have a local shop mount my tires and spin balance, costs $27 with tire disposal fee if I bring them the wheel. They have never failed yet to scratch my rims somewhere, I've just come to accept that they don't really care about your stuff and mounting a tire is pretty easy compared to some jobs when you have the tire changing machine. You just have to care and take the extra effort to protect the rim, it's not rocket science!