With a real vacuum bleeder, its not a problem, it takes very few trigger squeezes to get rid of the bubbles.

-and hence, why you are doing it the opposite direction. Vacuum not pressure. I see. You guys can take the vacuum pumps, it always seemed like too much monkeying around for me. I'll use actual speed bleeders and spill my cup of fluid all over the floor every time. lol

blue, wanna check something about your method.
Damn I wish I knew how to add someones quote here. Anyway, in your reply about using a feed line from a new container to the slave.....you say to hook up the Mityvac to the master valve and introduce some vacuum. Then crack open both the master and slave valve. But at that point you would now introduce air into the slave. Correct? At that moment I then have air in my M/C AND at the slave.
But I'm assuming this is OK because if I let the Mityvac do its thing it will draw out the air introduced at the slave and hopefully draw the trapped air that I believe is in the M/C area and causing all this trouble. Please let me know if I'm following you.
Will this method really draw fluid UP from the new container or will it also drain the reservoir? Seems like it would draw from the reservoir because it's closer but I'm willing to try it. Just afraid to make things worse. The damn clutch reservoir is so small it's a pain to keep watching it, filling it...And you can't rush or you start spilling that crap. And I can tell you from previous experience that the Mityvac will be drawing that constant stream of large bubbles the whole time so I hope that doesn't effect things. Makes it impossible to tell if you got any air out of the system though. And no I'm only opening the valves as much as will allow fluid to come out. Like I said, never seen such a thing. Hell, I don't even know if this will work simply because the Mityvac seems to have lost some vacuum when attached to the M/C valve compared to the slave valve. If so, would this method work in reverse? New container at the M/C valve and draw through the slave?? Most opinions say the air should be forced UP and not down?
Don't mean to question you man, just nervous 'cause this method is new to me. Don't ever worry about talking too much. That idea never crossed my mind. You just try to help and if it takes some 'splainin' then so be it. I appreciate the help and your time. Everyone else too!

PS: does it make sense to have the bars full left because it looks like that would help air find the M/C valve easier due to a steeper angle?? It WILL make it a little harder to keep the reservoir full but if it helps the bleeding I'll try it.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/6/2011 @ 2:14 PM *

No....you have the feed line in the fluid right there at the slave.It's connected.I normally have my bike on the rear stand when I'm doing anything.Turning the bar full left will change the angle....and MAYBE allow the air to get to the Master bleeder easier.I only try to keep the reservoirs level cause that feed hole at the bottom,if it's angled cause the bars are turned(while on the sidestand),the chance of sucking air in there is a tad greater,especially when it starts gettin low.You could be lookin at the reservoir from the outside,and THINK it's got "enough" left for "one more try".At the angle,on the outside,it looks like it has enough.I've done it.And had to start bleeding all over again!

It will NOT be okay to EVER introduce air into the line.From anywhere.Your lines need to be fitting snug and tight on there.They can't be "loose" and moving.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/6/2011 @ 2:16 PM *

Sorry blue. I'm not following you.
I understand you hook up the Mityvac to the M/C valve. Create some vacuum at the M/C valve. Then connect a feed line from the slave valve to a container of fresh fluid. Open both valves. I guess this is where I'm lost: The feed line from the full fluid container to the slave will be full of air. Once you open the valves and start vacuum that would allow air into the slave valve.
What am I missing? Step by step if you don't mind. Shit I'm getting old.
Gotta get back to work so I'll check in later.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/6/2011 @ 2:32 PM *

Best to remove the cap and watch visually for bubbles to enter the reservoir while tapping.Do it several times.

Go this way Kak....fill your reservoir.Go to the slave.Attach the Miteyvac.Pump the miteyvac till you get suction.(you do have the lines correctly on the mitevac,right?).There's an arrow that shows what goes to what.Okay....get some suction going.Open (crack) the bleed valve at the slave.Just for a second or so.See what you have coming out.Close.Repeat.Check reservoir up top.Fill if getting low.Repeat first operation...at the slave.Watch and see WHEN you begin to get ONLY fluid.Stop.Yer done with that part.

Go to the master.Tap the unit as suggested.Hook up your Miteyvac to the nipple.Get some suction going.Crack open the nipple.CLOSE.DO NOT LEAVE IT OPEN.Repeat.Same deal.Crack it open only for a minimal amount of time...just enough to use up the suction from the miteyvac.The fluid(and air) will travel BACK INTO THE LINE IF you let the suction go completely away.You know this.Keep doing it until you can see ONLY fluid entering the pickup line on the miteyvac.Once it's fluid only...check your lever.It should now be fine with a couple of pulls on it.If not,you STILL have air in there somewhere.

You said"it couldn't have pulled air down past the master"...something like that.Yes...depending on WHEN you realized..."oh shit...no fluid".It could be FULL of air,no telling.So it may end up taking you a while to get it all out.But it WILL come out.I suggested pulling from top master,filling from slave.You can go the other way as well.But the air is gonna want to move upwards in the line....which means....the filled part of the system is going to help drive the air up and out easier than trying to pull the fluid and air DOWNWARDS.

Yes,you're right.
It might be easier to just raise the fluid container up,like on a chair or something,drop the line in there,miteyvac a full line.Now connect the full line(pinched off of course)onto the slave nipple.You might get a few small drops at the nipple,but that's no biggie...just wipe it off there before you start the rest of the deal.Once it's full and on there,you can set the fluid container back on the ground if you're concerned about it maybe falling or something.

It would be easier to pull the fluid up the line...the air will be on top.But naturally,the air is gonna "change volume" as it tries to be compressed enough(actually,"vacuumed" enough) to actually start being pulled.So it may take some time to get it to stabilize enough to get it pulled into the miteyvac.Once you see it coming up through the miteyvac master line...watch it close.And your master reservoir.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/6/2011 @ 2:58 PM *

........

[quote]6-10 CLUTCH
Clutch Fluid
Clutch Fluid Level Inspection
•Refer to the Clutch Fluid Level Inspection in the Periodic Maintenance chapter.
Clutch Fluid Change
•Refer to the Clutch Fluid Change in the Periodic Mainte- nance chapter.
Bleeding the Clutch Line
• Remove: Screw [A] Clamp [B]
Clutch Reservoir Cap [C]
Diaphragm Plate • Diaphragm
Fill the reservoir with fresh clutch fluid to the upper level line in the reservoir.
NOTE
?Tap the clutch hose lightly going from the lower end to upper end and bleed the air off the reservoir.
WARNING
Be sure to bleed the air from the clutch line when- ever clutch lever action feels soft or spongy after the clutch fluid is changed, or whenever a clutch line fitting has been loosened for any reason.
CAUTION
Clutch fluid quickly ruins painted or plastic sur- faces; any spilled fluid should be completely wiped up immediately with wet cloth.
•With the reservoir cap off, slowly pump the clutch lever several times until no air bubbles can be seen rising up through the fluid from the holes at the bottom of the reser- voir.
?Bleed the air completely from the master cylinder by this operation.
•Remove the rubber cap from the bleed valve on the mas- •ter cylinder.
Attach a clear plastic hose [A] to the bleed valve, and run the other end of the hose into a container.
CLUTCH 6-11
Clutch Fluid
•Bleed the clutch line and the master cylinder. ?Repeat this operation until no more air can be seen com-
ing out into the plastic hose. 1. Pumptheclutchleveruntilitbecomeshard,andapply
the clutch lever and hold it [C]. 2. Quicklyopenandclose[B]thebleedvalvewhilehold-
ing the clutch lever applied. 3. Release the clutch lever [A].
NOTE
?The fluid level must be checked often during the bleed- ing operation and replenished with fresh clutch fluid as necessary. If the fluid in the reservoir runs completely out any time during bleeding, the bleeding operation must be done over again from the beginning since air will have entered the line.
•Remove the clear plastic hose. •Tighten the bleed valve, and install the rubber cap.
Torque - Clutch Master Cylinder Bleed Valve: 7.8 N·m (0.80 kgf·m, 69 in·lb)
• Remove the left lower fairing (see Lower Fairing Removal •in the Frame chapter). •Remove the rubber cap from the bleed valve.
Attach a clear plastic hose [A] to the bleed valve on the
clutch slave cylinder, and run the other end of the hose •into a container.
Bleed the clutch line as follows: ?Repeat this operation until no more air can be seen com-
ing out into the plastic hose. 1. Pump the clutch lever a few times until it becomes hard
and then hold it applied [D]. 2. Quickly open and close [C] the bleed valve. 3. Release the clutch lever [B].
NOTE
?Check the fluid level in the reservoir often, replenishing it as necessary.
?If the fluid in the reservoir runs completely out any time during bleeding, the bleeding operation must be done over again from the beginning since air will have en- tered the line.
WARNING
Do not mix different grades and brands of fluid.
•Remove the clear plastic hose.
Torque - Clutch Slave Cylinder Bleed Valve: 7.8 N·m (0.80 kgf·m, 69 in·lb)
Clutch Hose Removal/Installation
•Refer to the Clutch Hose and Pipe Replacement in the Periodic Maintenance chapter.
Clutch Hose and Connection Inspection
•Refer to the Clutch Hose Damage and Installation Con- nection Inspection in the Periodic Maintenance chapter.[/quote]

Thanks blue. Finally got home and I'll give it a go.
I'll try again with the Mityvac but this time I won't use their black elbow connector that fits over the valve. It seems like it's sealing because I see no leaking from it and the vacuum appears to build easily when you pre-pump it before cracking the valve. When I test it by using the vacuum release lever I hear the vacuum release so I think the elbows do seal. But this time I'll connect a piece of 3/16" into the Mityvac's 1/4" supplied line. This will give me a positive seal. It will be interesting to see if this set up still shows those constant large bubbles as before. If they still show up then there's no doubt they're coming in from around the valves threads.
I hope some improvement happens because as I said the master valve doesn't want to flow as well as the slave.
Thanks again for the help.

Thanks scottjkyl. I just posted as you were posting.
I'll give it a go and thanks for the detailed help. I appreciate it!

I got an idea to make your Mityvac work better. Flip the entire bike upside down like you did with your BMX bikes when you were 7 yrs old and wanted to pretend you were working on your motorcycle. This way the air bubles will be aimed at the bleeders and you don't have to worry about the air wanting to go upwards!

Damn I'm helpful!

Oh and Rook, you're right, your bleeders are bigger but mine are faster!

Tried it again last night and nothing changed. Did it the old pump, crack, close, release way and just get fluid and zero bubbles.
Don't know what to try next so I was really reaching for any idea. I could be wrong but it seems to me there's just a little air trapped in the M/C somewhere and that causes the lever slack before building pressure. I was wishing I could compress the piston in the M/C a bit more and maybe dislodge the air? Two small things came to mind and I had nothing to lose.
My lever is adjusted to the #5 (closest) position. I changed it to #1(farthest). I might be wrong but it looked like it now pushed the piston assy' just a tad more inward. And this time I squeezed the lever harder than normal against the grip to get all the piston movement I could. I have foam grips and they're thicker than the stockers.
Well wouldn't you know it, it helped.....once. First hard squeeze and crack open gave me two good sized bubbles. You'd thought I'd seen two f'n diamonds in there I was so happy! But that was it. Tried several times, each time squeezing the lever hard against the grip but no more bubbles. The lever action DID change some because I now have approx' 1/2" of "play" in the lever before it obviously is building pressure. Still not where I started at but improved from what it was.
At this point I'm just gonna ride it to work in the morning and test. If it isn't right then I guess I'm not riding until I find a way, or tool, to positively get air out no matter where it's trapped. Don't want to buy an expensive bleeder but would rather that than take it to a shop. Don't want a clutch problem turning into a shifting/tranny problem.
I can't believe this is so difficult. What happens if you need to replace the piston set, which is fairly common if you own something long term. That would seem a worse scenario than what's happened to me. There must be a common method of getting trapped air out of a M/C. On my old GS (brakes) the cure was to "purge" the M/C by removing the banjo and using your thumb or finger you squeezed the lever and removed your thumb, plugged the hole and released. A few cycles, put the banjo back on and it would respond well to basic bleeding after that.
Anyway, if it comes to it I'd appreciate any opinions on quality bleeder tools. I suppose we're talking about bleeders you hook up to a compressor? I'm having no luck with the vacuum tool I bought. Some tool that WILL FORCE any air out from wherever it is.
I can just see how quickly that tiny reservoir would drain using a tool like that, unless the flow is adjustable? Any help appreciated.

when you say you have 1/2 inch play before it builds pressure, it is possible that the master cyl piston is not returning to give you full stroke.
when the lever returns, not sure if the piston is connected to the lever and coming with it.? dose it feel like you are getting full stroke of the piston.

Small displacement pistons in brake clutch are a pain hard to move them bubbles.

When you crack a bleed nipple and use a vacuum unit on the nipple you can get air into the clear hose your using, from air being sucked in past the threads of the bleed nipple , don't confuse this with air in the system. ( don't open the bleed nipple to far )

Thanks ethin. The M/C piston returning perfectly. I wouldn't have bought the vacuum tool if I knew it had that issue of sucking bubbles from around the bleed valve. That's very bothersome and makes the job more complicated.
It's just a little air trapped in the M/C somewhere.
I'm going to start shopping for a bleed tool that will work if I can find one.

If you're only cracking the valve...it won't be pulling air.I wish I could be there to get this for ya...I feel your frustration...believe me,I do.1/2 inch lever gain....TWO BIG BUBBLES...yer gettin it.Try the tapping deal AGAIN.Bleed the M/C AGAIN.Work the lever AGAIN.Hit that M/C unit with the palm of your hand...give a few good whacks...hit it good...you aint gonna hurt it.Pull that fluid from the res through the master with your Miteyvac.Attach the hose right there.Get ya a good azz suction goin.Open the bleed valve(a teensy bit),just to allow the fluid to flow.Keep your res level good.Pull the fluid through the master.Everytime you stop to refill the res,close the bleed valve.It's STILL got air in there!You think you only "pulled a little in there" when she went dry.My guess...you plum sucked A BUNCH in there before you realized WTF happened!!

Listen Kak...there aint nothin wrong with the Master..the Slave...the pistons...the seals...the nipples.You now have MORE lever than when you started...right?So it's being finicky...but it'll clear pretty soon if ya keep workin it.NEXT TIME....WATCH what the F yer doin!!!!!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/7/2011 @ 6:41 PM *

Thanks blue. I've tried opening the valves from barely cracked to maybe 1/3 turn and that Mityvac still draws air. Useless thing. At least the basic method works as it's supposed to. I just need something that can search and destroy bubbles.
I've tried different bar positions, tapping, everything I can think of even if it seems pointless.
Like I said, I'll test it and see how it goes. Maybe something good will happen just riding around.
If not then I'll start shopping for a tool that works in cases like this. People change piston/cup assemblies all the time and you know there's a lot of air in the system after that. Generally, you bench bleed the M/C first then mount it. Must be a positive method or tool to bleed these things.

Kak...you can't ride her like that...your clutch won't work!

Okay...check this out.Forget the miteyvac(mine aint all that great either...course,it worked PERFECT the first couple o' times!)...listen my man.Here's what ya do.Take er to the shop(YOU MAY still be able to shift a few times with it like that....maybe...IDK...at least enough to get er over someplace?.Get someone to do this for ya...just this one time.Doesn't have to be a Kawasaki dealer.Any decent sportbike selling dealer will be able to fix this up for ya.It's air bro...that's all it is.They have the tools and techniques to get er dun pronto.Ya...so's ya pay for it this time around.No biggie...really.Hell,I had em do mine once or twice.(replaced M/C after a crash...way back......when).Get this...the replacement one I bought...yup...you guessed it...DEFECTIVE!!!!Seems the return holes in the casting hadn't been quite machined out correctly.Tried bleedin that sucker for...geez...several hours.couldn't get a pulse!Nothin.No air either.Just wouldn't hold a lever.Seriously doubt yours is in this same boat....it's yer stock M/C right?It will work.

Once ya do this thing....the next time you get er easy.First time's always...."IFFY".I just replace fluid by hookin up the miteyvac...ya...I still use it for this part...Hook it up at the slave.Fill the Master res.Leave the lever alone.....leave the M/C nipple alone...and just open the slave valve and pull fresh fluid all the way through the line.Refill the res as needed.That's it.It works everytime.Haven't had any air get in there by doin it this way.That's why I'm kinda curious as to WHY you can't get the system filled by pullin from the slave,and fillin the top res.You don't need to touch the lever at all.Did you TRY this?Honestly...it works excellent when I do it like this.

If yer anything like me....you'll get this deal YOURSELF or die tryin!~!!!!!Try the Mitey one more time...at the slave.See what happens.Keep yer res level up.When ya go to remove the miteyvac to empty it,close the valve first(I know...dumb statement).Sometimes I forget what sequence to do things....It's all good!

You're gonna see if there's some air in there still as the fluid drops into the vac,and runs through the lines.You might be surprised.ANY bubble streams...or "blobs" of bubbles...any at all,yer on the right track.The miteyvac is gonna pull EVERYTHING through.Long as the attachment is tight,it can only be "in the line".It may seem like..."geez...it can't STILL have air"...oh yeah,it can.But it can ONLY enter at the RES this time(which it won't do if ya watch it!).Only ONE valve is being opened/shut.You'll get er.Keep tryin!

I don't think you "bled the line" at first,when ya noticed the res deal.I think you "bled er dry" my man!!!!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/7/2011 @ 7:33 PM *

1 = if your sucking air at the bleed nipple either one, can you put a little cable tie around the little bleed hose to stop air getting in ,or modify it to do that and don't unscrew the bleed nipple to far.

2 = and you can bench bleed the master in position on the bike , just drop the banjo bolt off, push hose out of the way . Put your finger over the bolt hole, then useing the lever do it by hand. yes you will get air in there when you put it back but at least you will be making progress and may clear the air at the piston.

I have a ABW TestVac 80000, although I still tend to do it by hand 35 year habit i suppose

on my unit you need about 10-15 in Hg of Vacuum to be effective . Dose your unit suck down to that level, if not will not work effectively.

Go to hardware by clear plastic tubing the right size for nipple and suck baby suck just don't swallow. and add to you unit to fix attachment problem if possible.

http://www.getprice.com.au/ABW-Testvac-Automotive-Vacuum-Test-Kit-80000-Gpnc_112--43462096.htm

* Last updated by: ethin14 on 6/7/2011 @ 9:13 PM *

Hi Ethin.Awesome to hear from ya again here.Hope all is going great...getting some rides in,and your fam is okay.

I guess I'm not the ONLY one who's gone the "suck" route.It actually did work.Guess ya do what ya gotta do...eh?Worked pretty darn good too.

hey blue good to see ya getting some curves in read you other post , our winter is upon us here best time to ride so I supose that your in the middle of summer or start of autum. Get those miles clocked up, that white stuff will be back soon. temp here is about 5 deg c to about 20 deg c sweet sunny days.

I feel for poor old KAK if he was near by, would be all over it.

cheers

I appreciate the help.
ethin, my Mityvac doesn't have a gauge. It just says to pump it 10-15 times to get adequate vacuum. It's supposed to work with a car that way too so I have to think the vacuum is good enough for a smaller system. Not so sure about sucking on a tube to replace the Mityvac's vacuum. I just don't see why it would work but it might eliminate the bubbles I get while using the Mityvac.
I'm not leaking air from my tube connection on the valves. I'm positive the tubing is on there tight. As for the banjo idea, I thought of that earlier but stepping back to look at things, the M/C valve, which is right there, should be able to bleed the M/C well. I mean, the banjo is just below it. I might try it but it's in a bad location and I can just see fluid shooting everywhere when I release my thumb. It would be a job for 3 hands.
blue, rode the bike to work and it operates OK but it's not completely right. Not sure you're following me if you thought the bike was near un-rideable.
This all started last month when I posted about the lever feel "changing". One moment the "slack" would be near zero and then, especially if I accelerated fairly hard, the lever would get some slack in it, sometimes more than an inch of it. A moment later and the full pressure and range was back at the lever. Nobody could give much help except one member who's positive fluctuating slack is caused by weak clutch springs. He bought some Brock's stiffer springs and problem solved he said. I thought I'd change fluid and test before going for springs. Next thing I know I drain the M/C and here I am.
On the way in today, it shifted fine, etc. However, one obvious thing is still going on but it's related to the earlier complaint. This is an example: I'm cruising in 4th about 3,000 rpm's. All I do is stay in 4th, accelerate up to maybe 4,500 rpm's, not sudden, just wick it up a bit, and just like that I check the lever and I've got maybe 1" of slack in the lever. What the hell? Come up to the next light and the lever has "pumped" itself back up again.
Now that I'm fairly certain I've intoduced a little air into the M/C I'm in deeper.
But except for the example I just gave, which it was doing before I ever attemped the fluid change, the clutch worked fine today. Hard to believe it's springs but Romans(?) swears his bike did the same thing and stiffer springs fixed it.
So I'm close to getting the springs but would like to find a tool or method to positively remove any air trapped in the M/C first.
As fot the best chance of removing trapped air, I'd have to think since air wants to move up, you're best bet would be to vacuum from the M/C valve. I've even thought about buying Speedbleeders (have them on my GS and love 'em) in combination with the Mityvac. Maybe I wouldn't get that chain of bubbles from the valve because the Speedbleeders have a thick coating on their threads that could stop the leaking but it's no sure thing.
Sure is damn frustrating. Thanks for the help you guys.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/8/2011 @ 3:03 PM *

HHmmm...ya Kak..at least you CAN get er somewhere if ya need to.

When I changed my complete perch,M/C and lever....she initially worked.Then,as the fluid heated up...I started experiencing clutch slip.When she was cold...first ride out...she was fine for about 10,15 minutes.It WAS extremely frustrating.I bled er several times thinking it had to be air in there somewhere.Nah...as I said...faulty M/C(I bought it off a guy on e-bay,not his fault(I don't think anyway)He said it was off a brand new zx,0 miles bike...(they were using the engines for that T-Rex thing).Bought ANOTHER brand new one..ya....expensive deal there,but it worked PERFECTLY...no sweat.Bled perfect,filled perfect.Just like the manual explains it.I never tried to get my money back....just told him I'd keep it.Probably would have refunded it if I had really wanted him to.

I guess as "luck" would have it...I got one of those mis-machined units somehow.Unless he purposely KNEW it was bad from the start....I don't think he did.It came in the factory box....looked BRAND NEW...untouched.Paint was good...didn't look like it had even been on a bike.

blue, you saying Kaw' has some faulty M/C's on bikes? Mine is original and I bought the bike new.
I can't say I've had slipping but if that can also cause lever problems then maybe somethings's up with mine.
Sounds stupid, but I know what slipping is but I don't think any bike of mine has ever had the problem. Supposed to be obvious? My bike DOES seem to have the lever problem I describe once warmed up. Don't notice it when cold or just warm.

Have another idea and wonder what you guys think. I've heard of tie-strapping the lever back to the grip and leaving it over-night. It's supposed to help purge trapped bubbles from the system. You think that works?
I'll check out the parts in the M/C first. If there's a small/fine spring in there or something then I don't want to squeeze it down that long if there's a chance that could damage it. Don't need more problems. I've heard people do this over the years with no issues. What do you think?

May of miss understood a little there KAK, your original post lead me in a different direction

so if the bikes hot and it dose this going down the road will it do it with the same RPM on the side stand when hot.

* Last updated by: ethin14 on 6/8/2011 @ 3:47 PM *