I was replacing the clutch fluid and long story short, I allowed the reservoir to get too low and now I can't get the air out.
I was usuing a Mityvac but am now trying the factory method of simply pumping the lever, holding it and cracking the nipple loose quickly and re-tightening it before releasing the lever. I've done this several cylcles and each time a few inches of fluid go through the tube and I can't see any more air. I KNOW there's still air in there because I can't get the lever to firm up the way it should. My lever has always had obvious resistance immediately when squeezed but now there's nearly 1" before that resistance starts.
Any tips on how to get the air out? I once had a similar problem on my old Suzuki GS front brake and if I remember right I had to remove the banjo fitting and squeeze the lever and let fluid come out, then plug the hole with my thumb as I released the lever. A few cylces of this and I regained full lever action.
Right now I'm dead in the water and really could use the help.

I know it's strange but please watch full video it should help you out you can thank Hub!
http://youtu.be/Z0faaWnZJ3Y

Thanks for the reply.
I've tried what the video shows. That's your basic bleed job though it differs a little from the factory manual procedure. I'm surprised the factory manual is no help when you need to go beyond basic bleeding.
There's obviously air still in there that was caused by my allowing the reservoir to get too low. My Mityvac isn't even working as it was when I started. At first, with the Mityvac attached and pre-pumped with vacuum there was ready flow through the hose as soon as I cracked open the valve. Now it doesn't flow nearly as much and the reservoir drops very slowly compared to when I started. I can't get enough vacuum built.
Now that I tried going back to the basic pump, hold, crack loose, tighten, release method, all I get is a few inches of fluid passing but no sign of air. The lever then has about 3/4 to 1" of travel that feels too soft and sure isn't what I started out with. So I need another method of bleeding the M/C I guess? A bench bleed is what I think I need to do but that means tearing everything down.
All because the reservoir ran dry?

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/5/2011 @ 6:30 PM *

Try bleeding the clutch slave cylinder & make sure there is no air trapped there. Then go back & bleed the master cylinder.

I finished bleeding the M/C (no air) and then started doing the slave and was probably 1/2 through (no air) when I was too slow and noticed the reservoir got too low. So the air must be in the M/C. Basic bleeding isn't getting it out. Any more help appreciated.

If you first bled the slaves and then had the trouble with the reservoir running empty while bleeding the master, you can fix it easy. Just hook a length of hose up to the master nipple, open the nipple, and hold it over the open reservoir. Fill the reservoir, and work the lever until no bubbles come up the hose and drain into the reservoir.

When you finally close the nipple, the lever should be solid.

If you have a squishy lever, then you need to start over: 1) bleed left slave, bleed right slave, 2) bleed master.

I've done it 3 times on my ZX14, the last time when I went to 2-line front brake hoses, and that process works every time.

The manual method works every time.This system is NO DIFFERENT than any other vehicle brake/clutch hydraulic master cylinder setup.Sometimes I use my mitey-vac...sometimes....no.Just depends on how I feel about doing it.I've had sometimes very lousy success using that mitey vac.Other times...she worked really well.Been doing it the "old fashioned" way the last couple of fluid changes.

You know your bike there.The clutch should feel exactly as you expect.Immediate operation...no "play".Okay,maybe a TEENSY bit before it engages or whatever.Normal.But as you described...it still has air in there.ANY stream of tiny bubbles...any at all...it won't work right.

The master at the lever has a tendency to trap air inside the piston housing.Lightly tapping that assembly(with cap off)will normally move the air up into the reservoir...which is what it sounds like is happening(Do not use something that will dent or damage your housing)YOU ARE NOT OPENING or CLOSING the nipple while doing this! Then tap the air out.Watch your reservoir as you do it.You'll see if any pops up in there.It's okay to pump the lever at the same time.Long as there's fluid in there,it won't be a problem.Then move to the master nipple.Pump your lever...hold,open the nipple,close.You WILL get the air out,it just may be a little longer than you think it should take.You will get lever feel.When you open that nipple...if all you get is "air" and "no" fluid,yer on the right track.It will begin to flow soon.DO NOT RELEASE THAT LEVER however,when she's only pushing air.Course,you KNOW that.

OR....hook yer mitey vac up.Attach to that master nipple.PULL the air out.No messing with the lever at all that way.You'll get er.It can take a while.Watch yer paint my man...get your bodywork covered good before you start messin with your fluids.Course...you knew that also

You can always go THIS route.....hook your mitey vac to the top master nipple.Hook a feed line onto your slave nipple.Place the feed line into the NEW fluid container.Create some pressure by "pulling" with your mitey vac.Open the slave nipple...open your master nipple.NOW....watch your fluid container so you don't end up...well... in the same boat yer in now.You can always close the slave OR master to refill the fluid container and NOT remove any lines.(or to empty the mitey vac reservoir...just close the master nipple)You won't pull any air in(if yer careful).Use your miteyvac to completely fill the line and pull the fluid up through the slave.You will NOT have to do ANYTHING with your lever if you do it this way...NO PUMPING.That's where the miteyvac comes in really handy.You're pulling from the top because the air will be moving upwards in the line....it will make it a quicker job doing it this way.Once she's pulling fluid ONLY...close yer slave.Check your lever.Should be fine now.(keep yer eye on the master reservoir as well,it "may" try to pull some through that as you're doing this)

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/6/2011 @ 1:02 AM *

Thanks for the help.
privateer: I see only one slave nipple and my factory manual only shows one.
Also, I bled the master FIRST and then as I was bleeding the slave I allowed air into the master. Does it change your answer?

blue: I've tried tapping though I'll try again. I tried the Mityvac again and it works on the slave nipple the same as when I first tried BUT I get little or no flow at the master since I ran the reservoir dry. With the air I allowed in, the master just isn't responding to the usual bleeding procedure. I then went back to the old fashioned way and I get about 2 to 3" of flow and zero bubbles every time. I'm trying to be patient but see no end. Right now the lever moves about 3/4" before there's any good pressure felt. There was only a VERY small amount of play when I began.
I had an unexpected issue when I first started. I hooked up the Mityvac, pumped it to give vacuum and tested it first for vacuum. Releasing its lever released the vacuum so I know it's working. THEN, I pump it up again per instructions (about 15 pumps)and cracked open the valve. A LOT of air and fluid came out immediately and it would continue like that for as long as I had the valve open. The Mityvac instructions said I may get a steady stream of smaller bubbles and not to be concerned because they are only entering throught the valves threads and it's to be expected. But what I got was large bubbles and it was easy to see they would continue and that they were coming from the cracked valves threads. I've never seen this happen before. BOTH slave and master valves allowed air in through the threads. It was suggested by Mityvac to apply some teflon tape to the valves threads to avoid these bubbles but I haven't done that yet and they claim these bubbles aren't hurting the operation anyway. As I went along I noticed the lever felt good even with those bubbles coming out. I'd close the valve and the lever firmed up as when I started. It wasn't until I screwd up and allowed the reservoir to get too low that the lever feel changed.
So I'll try again after work but I don't have much faith I'll get the air out.
Does the idea of removing the banjo at the M/C and bleeding it there sound like it would work? I can see where it could be a damn mess so I'm really leary of trying it unless it will fix it.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/5/2011 @ 11:27 PM *

Sorry i can't give you any first hand experience about dealing with problems while bleeding. the by the book procedure hasn' failed me yet. Recently drained the rear brake resservoir and had no trouble with introcoing air. I jus filled it back up.

You can solve the air entering the hose if you'll move the tubing one way or another.It's not TOO loose fitting on there is it?Cut the tip off,and go for it again.You will lose a good portion of your suction if the air is entering through the nipple/line attachment.Not only that...but you really can't tell IF the system's clear of air or not with it pulling air in that way.You only crack the nipple open enough to allow fluid flow....not very far.You turn it TOO far,ya....it's gonna pull air in there through those threads.Air entering through the slave/tubing attachment point WILL FILL YOUR LINE WITH AIR.So whoever told you it was OKAY if air comes into that feed line...they're WRONG!!!!!!.If you do the whole line as I said,you won't need to pump the lever.The fluid will flow through everything it needs to,and your air WILL be sucked out.Just gotta keep that slave feed tube(at the nipple)secure and in some fluid.

I would NOT loosen ANY banjo bolts....yer asking for trouble.You break that washer seal(which forms when you tighten down the banjo bolt),and she'll drip fluid on yer paint,while your riding as well.It'll be everywhere before you see it...naturally,your paint will be ruined before you can say "Oh Shi&".And it will also suck air in there.Just a problem waiting to happen if you do that.If they aint broke....leave em alone...that's MY advice.Loosening the banjo is NOT going to solve your bleed situation.Anyone tells ya to do something with a perfectly good,sealed banjo is WRONG.

Right now,you have TWO areas to watch...the two tubes connecting the line to the fluid bottle at the slave, and your miteyvac at the master.You loosen those banjos....now you have FOUR areas to wonder about......You can tell if they're bad...easy....any fluid forming ANYWHERE around the banjo?Underneath on the lever or anything?If it starts leaking around there...yer gonna have some serious spots all over your meters and cockpit area.They WILL NOT come out if fluid get on there.

You'd see it if it was bad.You just need to continue bleeding.Pretty soon,you're gonna only get fluid coming into that line.If you've got ANY lever feel right now....she's just about there.Few more times and you'll see...she'll be good to go here real soon.You gotta make sure you're nipple,tube attachment(s) is sealed.NO AIR BEING PULLED INTO THE LINE!!!!!If you need to go to a slightly smaller tubing size,do it.It's GOT to be fitting secure.Do you see any evidence at the slave housing or banjo of seeping?If not...the slave unit is fine.You'd see it if it was there.

Bottom line...I talk too much.But I'm only tellin ya the pitfalls I had while "trying" to bleed/fill that clutch line.It can seem to take FOREVER...NO AIR ENTERING FROM ANYWHERE!!!!!If it's sucking air at the nipple attachment,get a smaller diameter line.Or cut the old one down some for a fresh start.

Just a heads up...those "caps" that come with the Miteyvac...the rubber fittings....those are pretty IFFY.You'll get better results just slippin the clear tubing over the nipple.Least you'll be able to see what's goin on.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/6/2011 @ 1:09 AM *

KAK wrote:

privateer: I see only one slave nipple and my factory manual only shows one.
Also, I bled the master FIRST and then as I was bleeding the slave I allowed air into the master. Does it change your answer?

I may have assumed too much.

You are working on a ZX14? It has two calipers on the front wheel? Each has a nipple used for bleeding, it is the only purpose the fitting has. These are slave cylinders.

On your right clipon is a lever, it has a radial master, and that has a nipple, which has only one purpose, bleeding.

You start and do one slave, then the other, then the master.

Regarding what Blue said, directly above. If you loosen one of the banjo bolts, you NEED to put new crush washers complete on it, which means you have to essentially drain the brake system. When the banjo bolts are torqued to specificiation, those washers are flattened. If you don't then retighten to torque+ it will draw air and weep at that connection. And retightening to torque+ could deform the caliper threads.

* Last updated by: privateer on 6/6/2011 @ 4:52 AM *

1.Fill the res.
2. Open both caliper bleeders and start pumping the lever.
3. Watch the fluid drop down.
4. Once you see that, close the caliper nipples one pulled squeeze at a time.
5. Open the master's nipple and slowly pull the lever back.
6. Close the master nip, pump the lever once, open the nip and purge.
7. The trick is to get the fluid moving again.
8. I doubt the banjo would help being the master nip will do the same effect.
9. There is no rule saying you can't pop the banjo and bleed a lever at that area either.
10. All options are open at this moment.

This is not rocket science. You are off sequence if you can't remove air with a lever and a nip. It's not the parts.

Technically, you replace parts. But a crush washer is just that. Crush it a few times, what the hell. Same can be said no one ever removes the drain crush washer, reuse it and does she leak? No... Then break the banjo and stop worrying about finding a pedal at this time. Kind of a mute point right now.

11. I forgot.
12. Push the brake pads home. This will purge the line in reverse. Many times have I pushed the pads in [only] where that brake lever is now back to being robust and firm. No nipple bleeds needed.

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/6/2011 @ 7:14 AM *

Ahem.....not tryin to be "funny" here fellas....he's working with his CLUTCH. WHHEEEEEE>>>>>>>>>>>> And no,it's NOT the same thing

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/6/2011 @ 8:16 AM *

LOL
this is so easy just takes patience, good luck.
bleed at the master first then at the clutch cylinder. If it's three hours later and you've got carpal tunnel and your lever is worn thin as a toothpick from pumping you can MAYBE assume you have a bad part leaking like a silly washer. I have reused copper/aluminum washers a million times and though it is a good bit of precaution to always use new (and I do when I can), a used one has never failed me.

nothing beats the pump and dump method as long as you work out from the master and have PLENTY of new fluid. Just is more tedious when your res only holds a couple ounces at a time. But once you get close to bled, it quits going down so much.

While we're on the topic, I think if someone puts in the effort it's be great if they'd post up the bleeder sizes so we can replace them all with speed bleeders. I've never been a big proponent of them, but recently I put them on the back of my truck and all I had to do is watch the bubbles stop in the jar while the wifey got a work out pumpin the brakes.

I use a speed bleeder (vacumm style) and do it from the bottom up. Fast, right the first time.

I could do it from the top down, but air bubbles move up, so I leave the top for last.

Gotta LOVE it!

Hey whatever works for you. I guess it's true what they say about ole dogs....hehe

So what size are the speed bleeders you installed on your bike, Privy? if you remember...

* Last updated by: Edgecrusher on 6/6/2011 @ 10:28 AM *

Remove the brake caliper housing, i.e., the sprocket cover. What do I care about a master and a caliper if it is either design = Do the same push the purge of the piston back into the housing ~ Me no she dat... Say, that senior moment you caress that plunge into that sea posi tore one more theory up your rope is I'm trying to piss up one myself.

I REALLY apppreciate the help.
Like blue said, I'm working on the clutch.
I never had a problem bleeding before but this is also the first time I ever let a reservoir get too low. I was surprised when I saw the reservoir empty. I thought I would still have a little left in it. The air couldn't have gone too far down.
You can imagine the air going down the tube into the M/C but it's hard to believe it could go further. But it must find a spot to get stuck and trying to get it out the basic way of squeeze/crack the valve/close the valve/release is showing NO progress at all. I just get a few inches of fluid and zero air but the excess play in the lever remains.
blue, I've tried 1/4" ID clear hose and 3/16" also. The 3/16 is VERY tight on the valve so I know air isn't getting past it. No air enters the tubing at all so I'm sure there's no air getting past the valves threads. It's just when I use the Mityvac that I get a constant stream of large bubbles and fluid. According to Mityvac it's normal to get a steady stream of SMALL bubbles and they say they are coming from the valves threads so not to worry. But these bubbles are very large.
If you could see it yourself I think you'd agree these bubbles are from the valves threads. Example: I install the Mityvac correctly, no leaks, test that it's making vaccuum by pumping it the required 15 times and using it's relief lever, pump it up again and crack open the valve. A very uniform, constant flow of fluid and large bubbles will come out. If I close the valve and wait a moment or so and re-open the valve without any more pumping, I'll get the exact same flow of fluid and bubbles again. The vaccuum stays even though those bubbles are entering. The lever doesn't change. I think this could go on all day and the results would be the same. The system couldn't hold that much air and I'm positive there are no other leaks so I know it's entering from the valve threads when opened.
So the Mityvac vaccuum forces air through the threads but the normal pump and squeeze method flows fluid as it should with no bubbles but the lever just stays the same. I'm staying with the basic method for now.
My lever felt fine after I completed bleeding the master (even with those bubbles flowing with the Mityvac) but once I let the reservoir get low while doing the slave my problem started.
There must be a way of getting that trapped air out of the M/C. I agree now that using the banjo at the M/C is just asking for more trouble. I just don't know what else to try. Maybe turning the bars at a different angle will help the air move out? There are NO signs anywhere of leaking by the way. The reservoir level was right where it was the day I bought it new.
Sorry for the long post but I'm trying to give detail just like we were in the garage. Such a simple thing but I'm getting nowhere.

What size is my speed bleeder? Dunno, its about a foot long and 6 inches high and has a catch bottle and 2 feet of clear tubing.

Its just a plain old automotive vacuum bleeder, and its fast as hell.

If I put a hose on one of the slave nipples, and the other end of the hose in a big bottle of DOT4, I can bleed from up top at the master nipple, but there is a chance of contaminating the fluid in the bottle that way.

So I just use the little reservoir and make sure I keep it full.

With a real vacuum bleeder, its not a problem, it takes very few trigger squeezes to get rid of the bubbles.

* Last updated by: privateer on 6/6/2011 @ 12:23 PM *

The other thing I wanted to mention was if I use the Mityvac at the slave, I get that same flow of fluid and bubbles just as I did before the reservoir went dry. Nothing changed. BUT, if I hook up the Mityvac to the master as I first did, I DON"T get that constant flow through the tube now. There is SOME flow but it's much less and the reservoir doesn't drop nearly as quickly as it did the first time.
So the air I allowed into the M/C is screwing up the operation of the Mityvac when I use it at the M/C valve. It builds vaccuum but not enough to get things flowing like it did. How some trapped air causes this problem I don't know. But it's obvious to me the problem is at the M/C.
So I'm trying the basic method but getting nowhere.
I'll read your method again blue and give it a try, if I get it straight. Before trying it I'll probably post again in my own words so I hook things up as you said. Hopefully you can post if I've got something wrong.
I appreciate the time everyone.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/6/2011 @ 12:07 PM *

OK. Stupid question time.
I noticed if I turn the bars full left that the M/C is at a steeper angle and this could help trapped air move up to the bleed valve or the reservoir. The angle is changed even more if I remove the 2" wood block under the sidestand. My question is will the air still move up into the reservoir if the reservoir cap is ON and the level is correct or would this work better if the cap is off?
I'd like to let it sit as is for a few hours before trying to bleed again. Maybe the air will just work its way out?