I imagine with all the twisting roads you have out there in Oregon, you are going to have a lot of folks who can turn a bike. Here in the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex, the sportbike scene seems to center around bling,bikenights, highspeed pack riding on the Interstate and stunting.

Big D is flat with no curvy roads, it's about 30 minutes by freeway to get out into farm country and have some fun.

Dragmeister has roads just west of Austin closer to what you have in Oregon.

Wow Dogo, you sure resurrected an old thread here...LOL!

Yeah, I'm reading Nick Ienatsch's book, Sport Riding Techniques, (for the second time) and figured with Spring weather starting to pop up, "The Pace" would be a good read for the guys here... No point in a re-post, so bumped your old thread.

I think you kinda need to take some of "The Pace" with a grain of salt... particularly the speeds... Highly doubt the group Mr. Ienatsch rides with actually sets the cap @ 75mph... but he is an ambassador to the sport, and therefore needs to watch what he says just a little more than some.

Great concept regardless, and at the very least makes you think about what you are doing out there.

Little surprised that your 6r is the go to machine (get the recall notice, BTW?)... Would think you'd favor the midrange of your 1000rr... and since you're not riding your 10r, you should hook a brother up. I need a new street legal litre now that mine no longer is.

I still like roads that I call Hwy 14.

WA SR14, or you makin' a funny?

I'm not sure why but there are some really good riders amoung the massas here.

It's the roads... PNW has a lot of good ones... like I need to tell you. Not to mention, there are a lot of experienced guys willing to take the time to mentor the groms.

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/14/2012 @ 9:29 AM *

Yea, Ienatsch has to say that, political correctness, the main idea though is you can keep your speed fairly sane and still have a good time. Case in point, there is a stretch of Farm Market Road up north of me with some beautiful roller coaster hills I used to blast at about 140 mph a few years back. Two weeks ago I was riding with a friend, he's still a bit of a newb so I was taking those rollers easy at about 70. I came over the top of one and a farmer pulled out in front of me in a pickup from a gravel side road and slammed on his brakes broadside in the road. I had time to brake and take evasive action at 70 mph, at 140 mph I probably wouldn't be writing this. Not going to risk it anymore, I'll continue to ride a fast "pace" but only when there's nice corners and clear sightlines. Save the crazy speed for the racetrack.

BTW, five minutes later we crested the top of another hill and there sat a DPS squad car at the bottom. This is about 50 miles from the nearest civilization, so you just never know.

The liters are a blast but there is just something addictive about screaming through the turns on that little 6R. It's a lot more involving ride than the bigger bikes and you can go almost as fast on top end if that's your thing.

Also depends on the road, the liters work really well on a flowing road with 80-90 mph sweepers while the 6R is better on the slower, tighter stuff.

Man, close one... Good thing you were the lead rider. The noob may have had issues avoiding even at the more "sane" speed.

Which brings up a question:

When group riding with people of different skill/speed levels (which BTW, to me, is 3 or less total), what is the best order for the group? IE: Faster in the lead, or slower in the lead?

In the situation Kruz just mentioned, I think it was a good thing the more experienced guy (Kruz) was leading... But when I ride with less experienced peeps, I worry about the "noob" focusing on me and my "pace" rather than the road ahead and finding their own "pace".

Thoughts?

Newb almost went off the road later, he was trying to hold my wheel when I suddenly peeled off into a 90 mph left hander, he said he panicked and target fixated on the fast approaching roadside ditch. Went into full blown survival mode and locked up his rear brake. Luckily he got it slowed down and this story had a happy ending. Later when we stopped for gas he was still shaken. Good news, he learned a valuable lesson, ride your own ride. I think we've all been there at least once, I know 1bad almost ran me off into a ravine years ago.....my own fault, should have known better.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/14/2012 @ 7:02 PM *

We've been experimenting with different techniques. One, I give the Newb a head start of several minutes then run him down then do it again. That way everyone is at their own pace.

Another is I go on ahead and tell him not to try to maintain my pace, don't watch me, watch the road. That works also, when I come to a road intersection I wait so he knows which way I'm going.

Third technique when I want to relax I tuck in behind him and ride his pace and watch his technique for later critique. He's improving fast, said he doesn't want to ride with guys going his speed since he's having to push the pace more this way.

One last way is to put the faster rider on a really slow bike...Ninja 250 comes to mind here....lol!

One last way is to put the faster rider on a really slow bike...Ninja 250 comes to mind here....lol!

Tried that... I just wrang the little Ninja's neck.

Did you blow it up?

One last way is to put the faster rider on a really slow bike...Ninja 250 comes to mind here....lol!

Tried that... I just wrang the little Ninja's neck.

Try this

Did you blow it up?

lol... no, that one stayed together. Sold it.

Try this

LMAO!

Maybe this:

One horse power!

To come back on the topic which I think is very interesting BTW...
My problem is that, fast open sweepers are thrilling but to really enjoy them you have to carry some speed into them, the thrill is to come just a tad under too hot (rather, what YOU think is too hot) and flip the bike. That is really satisfying! The drawback is that you have to carry some speed in the straight before that corner. Also, decelerating after a curve feels so weird. I have started doing that and I do miss hauling ass in a blind corner. There is something about it, you feel like your God's only child when you make it out lol
As far as getting into a sweeper, flicking the bike, accelerate and flick the bike more, it's ok on a really long sweeper (we have several here) but it requires minimal skills and barely does it for me.

Finally, all the teaching techniques Kruz mentioned are pretty good, I wish you guys lived close by so I can pick your brains. As a newb I do target fixate a lot, especially when turning left (for some reason) I find it difficult to keep my eyes down the road, especially when there is a "precipice" on the right side... although it was on a right corner, this video comes to mind...
C.C Crash 2010
I would benefit from all 3 scenarios, but if I were to follow a rider on a 14 who was going a little faster than me, I would make huge progress. I followed a 600 into a corner not too long ago and that opened my mind about what the 14 can do. Giving me a couple of minutes head start would work too, but I'm such a sucker, I would probably blast the straights just so Kruz don't catch up and deny it afterwards lol .
At the end of the day, it depends of the newb you're dealing with. If he/she doesn't trust his bike, ride in front of him and show him what it can do, or... AND I know all of you are going to bitch... put him on the passenger seat and take him for a ride LMAO, if he doesn't make progress follow him and see what's holding him/her. The main thing is that you have to give him/her confidence in his skills and the bike. I got more confident after some close calls for some it can be the opposite. Regardless, make sure they practice emergency situations in a closed course. Finally, let's face it, one learn a lot during a crash. Your skills improve, your get cocky, the bike takes it upon itself to show you you're not that good. It's impossible to prevent all crashes but what we can do is make sure that we put ourselves in the right conditions for a crash i.e. closed course, gear, etc. I'm planning to crash on a track! Who's going with me?

LMAO didn't see the handle bars at first lol

Funny Dogo SR14 that road is a conduit to Carson to Cougar which is a full plus tank of pure madness. I think the pace to me means keeping the suspension settled before the corner and not braking hard at the corner entrance which allows the bike tobe smoother. A lot of riders don't like rhe higher speeds but to each their own. I miss the sweepers like Colorado has but the few around I've done seem real easy just keep leaning over but the down side of sweepere is that to have fun you have to go 90 or more a lot which can have you looking straight at a cop.

Giving me a couple of minutes head start would work too, but I'm such a sucker, I would probably blast the straights just so Kruz don't catch up and deny it afterwards lol.

I've had a couple riders do that, you slip away and pull out a nice lead through a tight, twisty section then back her down on a straight and here they come tucked in and doing a 100+, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of the pace and brings undue attention from LEOs. What I started doing was, blast through a section of turns, pull a nice lead then tap my brakes three times so they can see my brake lights come on and know I'm well off the gas and slowing on the straight sections. That takes the pressure off and they don't feel compelled to drop into a tuck to catch back up.

Target Fixation, that one is tough and will get you hurt or worse. Some of the best training for that has been bombing the overpass curves, there's a wall a few feet away and you've got the bike heeled way over. You have to force yourself to look away from the wall and down the road or you'll be drawn right into it. One of the newbs I ride with was asking how come he can't peel off into a turn, he enters the turn at too low a speed and then accelerates through the curve. I followed him and deduced that he wasn't selecting a turn in point where he made a definite commitment to the turn and executes a forceful control input. Turns out he was looking at the obstacles on the outside of the turn where he didn't want to go, the bar ditch, the gravel shoulder, the fence post and that was causing him to hesitate and blow his corner entry. I told him to focus on the road like nothing else existed, when you slow down you can sight see.

This stuff is fun but when you start to really explore the limits, you have to undue a lot of bad habits. A cool thing about riding the pace is you quit relying on the brakes to slow down and start focusing on "throwing it in" on the tires to scrub off excess speed much like a downhill skier uses the edge of his ski. Those brakes can be deadly if misused in a corner.

Another technigue is to train yourself to look through the turn, not a few feet out from your front tire. I've notice now that when I'm approaching an unfamiliar curve, I'm scanning way ahead picking up visual cues on what speed I can safely negotiate the bend. Two things I've found that are hard to pick up visually until you are well into the corner are off cambers and decreasing radius. Those two will bite you hard if you're not careful, good reason to use a conservative corner entry speed so you have some lean angle in reserve if you need it.

The "Widow Maker" is an S turn marked 30 mph just West of Sanger Texas on FM455, it has both off camber and decreasing radius features and they've had seven fatals on that one turn in the last few years. The rider enters with too much speed, runs out of lean angle and runs wide into oncoming traffic.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/15/2012 @ 7:25 AM *

Also, decelerating after a curve feels so weird.

Same here, to overcome this, I roll the throttle all the way to the stop as I lift the bike off the apex, hold it there for several seconds and then back out of it to keep my speed from gong too high (and losing the newb lol. This way I'm completing my corner just like I would on a racetrack but not carrying the acceleration all of the way down the straight away once the bike is fully upright. This has the added benefit of giving you time to relax and think about that last corner or the one coming up.

The downside of all this is racetracks have long, high speed straights followed by hard braking zones with lots of downshifting leading into a slow turn. You're not going to get any practice at this riding the pace and I'll have to admit tht is my biggest weak point. I especially hate fast downhill straights followed by tight 1st gear corners. It is physically brutal and to me at least takes way a lot of the enjoyment. I hate that feeling of instability as you load up the front tire and the back wheel starts to come off the ground....spooky!

When group riding with people of different skill/speed levels (which BTW, to me, is 3 or less total

You got that right, large group of sportbikes, especially when mixing experience levels, can be deadly and I avoid that scenario like the plague.

I call it the "Red Mist" when you get a bunch of testosterone laden males together on high powered sportbikes. Egos get out of control quickly and people get hurt .....or worse. Screw that, I'm going to ride my own ride, if someone's faster, let him go, there'll possibly come a day when the tables are turned and he's trying to keep you in sight.

I know all of you are going to bitch... put him on the passenger seat and take him for a ride LMAO

Actually, one of the schools here would take passengers out on the track on a gixxer 750 to show them a racing pace... but the bike broke in half!

I wish I was closer too, DK... I think you, myself, and Kruz would have a blast running the "pace".

Funny Dogo SR14 that road is a conduit to Carson to Cougar which is a full plus tank of pure madness.

Thought it was a joke, but had to ask... SR14 is fun, but it's the off shoots that make it noteable.

Target Fixation, that one is tough and will get you hurt or worse.

Something, I think, even the most experienced guys struggle with from time to time. Practice some panic stops from high speeds, and note how much ground you cover getting the bike stopped... You will learn to keep your focus well out ahead of you.

The downside of all this is racetracks have long, high speed straights followed by hard braking zones with lots of downshifting leading into a slow turn. You're not going to get any practice at this riding the pace and I'll have to admit tht is my biggest weak point.

But I think the point of the pace is to keep the street separate from the racetrack... Although many of the skills learned from each will cross over, they are very different animals.

You got that right, large group of sportbikes, especially when mixing experience levels, can be deadly and I avoid that scenario like the plague.

Way too many "rider down" and "RIP rider" threads on the local forum here every year. Seems like everytime someone puts together a large group ride, somebody goes down. They always separate into smaller groups of "equal" skill levels, but still happens. Not my idea of a good time.

I wish I was closer too, DK... I think you, myself, and Kruz would have a blast running the "pace".

That would be fun!

[But I think the point of the pace is to keep the street separate from the racetrack... Although many of the skills learned from each will cross over, they are very different animals.

True dat! The skills do crossover but your right, there really is no place for screaming into corners and banging downshifts on a two lane country road. The idea is to ride a pace where you feel challenged but not in competition with anyone else although it can get spirited at times. I remember watching four guys go by on the "Twin Sisters" ( famous Texas Hill Country route probably similiar to your mountain roads in Oregon) back in 2006. I was on my ZX-14 and pulled over for a break. These four guys came through on literbikes at a blistering pace, engine rpms perfectly synchronized and never changing pitch, just a droning sound. Looked like two wheeled ballet, knees were in and if they were hanging off, it wasn't much. I remember thinking to myself, "I want to do that someday"! The key was discipline, and checked egos. All of them were probably riding comfortably within their own personal limits and their was no race. It was all about maintaing high speed and cohesion of the group with total control over their machines. Cool stuff!

Way too many "rider down" and "RIP rider" threads on the local forum here every year. Seems like everytime someone puts together a large group ride, somebody goes down. They always separate into smaller groups of "equal" skill levels, but still happens. Not my idea of a good time.

Nor mine, an old timer told me a while back that he and his riding buddies would take bets on which newbie was going to crash out first on a group ride. One of his buddies was killed instantly on a Sunday mornng ride when an old lady (blue hair) crossed the white line on a two lane road.

Something(target fixation), I think, even the most experienced guys struggle with from time to time.

Yep, target fixation is a result of unexpected circumstances, it's the primitive, low speed brains way of dealing with an "oh crap" moment. Lots of experience and great riding skills can raise the onset threshhold but if something happens totally unforeseen, outside our experience reference, basic survival instincts can take over and ruin your day. I like what Keith Code has to say on the subject, our survival instincts were designed to protect us against being eaten alive by a saber tooth tiger not dealing with panic on two wheels at 150 mph.

When i ride we often get passed by a nutcase on the straights in their nice leathers, then end up passing them back in every frigging corner. A whole lot of people out there think they ride great because they know how to twist the throttle. I just relax on the straights and don't slow down for the corners. As long as you're smoothe and aren't dragging hard parts the bike will make the corner. Most crashes are the rider crashing and taking his poor bike with him.

Mad

@ Kruz & Dogo just keep the shiny side up and one day we'll do it!

When i ride we often get passed by a nutcase on the straights in their nice leathers, then end up passing them back in every frigging corner.

These four guys came through on literbikes at a blistering pace, engine rpms perfectly synchronized and never changing pitch, just a droning sound. Looked like two wheeled ballet, knees were in and if they were hanging off, it wasn't much. I remember thinking to myself, "I want to do that someday"!

Good thing your roads are too thin for road traps on the corners. You'll get busted if a cop sees you doing that. They prolly admire a synchronized ticket as much as they admire your riding skills.

wouldn't work here. Our back roads have little or no shoulder for a cop to park on too. Still, I can't imagine picking up speed as I get out of sight around the bend and then slowing before I exit. That defies logic. A corner is not big enough to do that and challenge any rider with moderate skills

sorry. Not buying the LEO-proof-ness of this. I'm sure it helps a lot to not alarm nonbikers (as much) but cops would be on alert as soon as they heard you and (as they would with any group of sportbikes) and if you were doing more than 10+ they are going to stop you for sure.

unless you get this guy:

sure hope you don't get this guy

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/16/2012 @ 11:24 AM *

Way too many "rider down" and "RIP rider" threads on the local forum here every year.

http://www.winknews.com/mobile/index.php/mobile/article/One-person-dead-after-motorcycle-accident

We just lost this young man from the ZX10R.net forum early Thursday morning. Investigation is ongoing but 1:30 in the morning going fast enough to bend the rear axle on a 3000 lb four door Honda Accord and knock it 113 feet begs the question, just how fast was he going and was there alchohol involved?

The rider traveled 367 feet from the point of impact, more than the length of a football field.

Last time I saw an accident like this, police estimated 120 mph at point of impact with a Cadillac turing right from a side street. The right rear axle broke and folded under the vehicle.

I Googled the intersection and it looks scary at 50 mph in broad daylight.

Street view here, not the place to go fast at 1:00 in the morning IMHO, or anytime for that matter.

http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS313US315&q=3200%20Del%20Prado%20Blvd%20S%2C%20Cape%20Coral%2C%20Lee%2C%20Florida%2033904&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

I HATE going fast on Farm to Market roads....I won't.BELOW the limit is normally my way.There's plenty of big speed open roads out around here....Be careful Kruz....only takes one guy to cross the crest of that hill in your lane.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/16/2012 @ 11:36 AM *

Not buying the LEO-proof-ness of this

I think you're missing the point here Rook, forget LEO proof, if you are above the posted limit you can get a ticket.... period. If you can't accept that fact, you're on the wrog bike, get a cruiser and hang out at Hillbilly Heaven on Thursday nights...lol!

Once again, the point is that riding the pace keeps you at or slightly above the posted limit. Would you rather be pulled over at 65 in a 55 or 150 in a 55? The first scenario is an inconvenience, the second can be life changing. Think about it.

BTW, blistering pace is relative, I would estimate those guys were doing maybe 50 mph in the turn I saw. At that time I could manage safely maybe 30 mph on the same turn on my 14, so yes, too me at that time, the pace was blistering. I think the posted limit was 40 mph. That's ten over, if a LEO happended to radar them he might give them a pass at that pace as long as they pulled over and were respectful.