Rook; "Personally, I feel much safer on the road than I did 20 years ago and that has nothing to do with law enforcement. The cars are better. The roads seem to be better maintained and constructed more safely too"

Not where I ride. I felt 1000 times safer 20 years ago. I have a close call at least once every time I ride. That used to happen once every 9-10 rides. I avoid the interstate like the plague because of incompetent / inattentive drivers, but the country roads aren't safe either. The roads here are horrible. Every summer they randomly spread a 2" layer of chip on a road about a half mile in from the intersection till the next intersection. Just enough distance to let you get some speed up before you hit the chip. No warning signs either. This leaves a nice spread of gravel at every corner and intersection all riding season. The best part is when the inexperienced road crew just leaves the foot tall hump of chip where the truck started to dump. Hit that at 50 mph. Add in the racedriver highschoolers, centerline straddling elderly, and road wide farm implements, and it's getting worse every day.

---

Well I'm SURE about ONE thing...the American People aren't a bunch of sheep.....as was witnessed on the midterm elections.We see a threat,we do something about it.

What does voting actually do? What do you gain by voting out one corrupt regime for a new, possibly more corrupt, regime? Frank Chodorov once wrote, "It is this transference of power from voter to elected agents that is the crux of republicanism. The transference is well-nigh absolute. Even the constitutional limitations are not so in fact, since they can be circumvented by legal devices in the hands of the agents. Except for the tenuous process of impeachment, the mandate is irrevocable. For the abuse or misuse of the mandate the only recourse left to the principals, the people, is to oust the agents at the next election. But when we oust the rascals, do we not, as a matter of course, invite a new crowd? It all adds up to the fact that by voting them out of power, the people put the running of their community life into the hands of a separate group, upon whose wisdom and integrity the fate of the community rests."

So, in essence, you've done nothing more than change the color of the wall that you'll soon be banging your head against once more.

I don't think anyone is gonna need to be worried about "cameras" in our faces.Our freedoms are gonna be safe AS LONG AS....we ditch the socialists and progressives in Washington...which is already occurring.

Again, you're just changing the color palate.

EVERYONE ought to know by now...the Government ALREADY knows EVERYTHING it needs to about you or I....even down to the last webpage we visited.

Actually, they don't. That's the point. They'll never "know" enough to suit them. They'll always want to "know" more.

I'm not concerned...this country will never end up like Soviet Russia OR Hitler's Germany.You can bet on that.

We've been at this point in our country for quite awhile. Allow me to reiterate my previous example: Much of our laws and statutes are already fashioned after Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. For example, the Gun Control Act of 1968 is nearly identical to the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 in structure and effect - much of the wording is also the same. So, we already suffer under a tyrannical, oppressive government.

You should be concerned, very concerned.

Cameras at the corners?If it catches some idiot for rippin off my nieghbor...so be it.His tough luck I reckon.I might take this one step further...while on the subject of "cameras.You look at the NEWEST way for criminals to get your info...okay.Think about this...yer standing in line at the market...using your debit card.Guy behind ya "appears" to be conversing on his cell phone...okay?Guess what...he's taking a pic of your card number AND your pin number.Now he goes and gets a copy made(easily I might add).He's right into your account same day.Sound scarey...well..yeah.So who should we REALLY be worried about....the "Government Black Helicopters"...or nice American guy..Joe Blow?Fear the Government.Not me.There's enough assholes out there already to be concerned about.

Unfortunately, the same technology that may catch a criminal can and will be used against you. I would prefer that government just left well enough alone. I don't need government to keep me safe.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/9/2010 @ 12:09 AM *

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alg8er wrote:

Just to clear things up........the jackass is tailgaiting me when I'm in the right lane! I cruise at about 85, and I'm only in the left lane to pass. They usually tailgate me because they're too much of a pussy to speed on their own. So if you're the pussy tailgaiting me with his brights on, I may accidently toss out the last of my milkshake. Better yet, grow a pair and drive at your own speed.

he he... noted! I'll fall back a bit more when drafting you ;)

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By that definition of a police state, every country in the world is a police state! Your rants remind me of the hippies of the 60's. They hated the regime and all it's laws and rules. Most of them and their children are now the liberals ruining this country. People have been ranting that way since governments started. You're nothing new, and neither are laws.

This is a straw man argument, nothing more.

I would rather live in a country of laws where I feel somewhat safe, than some utopia where I have to trust people not to violate my rights on their own principles and morals.

Freedom requires responsibility not only to yourself, but to others as well. Utopias have no place in a land that recognizes freedom, liberty and individual rights. By hiding behind a veil of laws we have abandoned the individual for the grossly repugnant aggrandizement of the collective.

I can only conclude from your statement that you believe man is incapable of responsibility and freedom, of fidelity and courage, that he not only cannot choose good from evil, but cannot even distinguish it, let alone practice the choice.

At what cost to freedom and liberty are you willing to be safe in a land of laws?

I have an idea. Instead of you trying to convince me how horrible this country is, you tell me a better way.

Your convincing is unnecessary - either you recognize the current state of this country, or you don't.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/9/2010 @ 12:04 AM *

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What I see in the current state of this country is a lot of people suffering financially...and REALLY pissed about the Obama Presidency.Democratic Congress and such.Ya...Bush and them weren't perfect....we all know that.But at least he DID something about 9/11...and managed to get to the disaster sites and offer hope when they needed it.This is the current administration's view..."vote for this deal....THEN,we'll tell you/show you just how great it is"..WTH?Talk about ignorant.Geez.Would you or I go pay for a car without seeing it or at least driving it first?We're talkin Billions of dollars here,not yer $1000 car.If this is they're mentality...ya...we're definitely in deep,and might as well let the Jihadists come on over and do their thing.

"we wouldn't want to anger the foreign terrorists you know,with the threat of waterboarding to find out life and death info.Gosh,if they KNEW they'd be "tortured" for trying to kill Americans...they just might think twice...can't have that now.They need to know that whatever they do to our people,the punishment is three hots and a cot,along with their Cable Television and Al Jezeera stations.Maybe a couple o'satellite links there to AlQueda in the Arabian Penninsula as well.Wouldn't want to make em uncomfortable in any way"....THIS is the thinking in the present administration.Mustn't upset those radicals now.Geez....one of the stupidest remarks I heard was from ONE of those "High Ups" in the security department...you know,someone who has a VAST knowledge of Arab history and culture....they said...."we don't want to do anything that will aggravate the Muslim countries.If we go this route(it was something quite innocuous)they'll hate us."
This is from an Obama appointed aide partly in charge of our country's security and safety.Are they(our administration) REALLY so ignorant that they believe the United States would be seen as a "friend" to the hard line Muslim world by doing or not doing anything different than going after the killers of our people?They don't need a reason...they already have one....the "WEST" IS the enemy.

My vote's for the ouster of our present administration,and get some "world knowledgeable" people in there that'll keep this country the kickazz place it really is.Imagine...bowing down to the Saudi King.Geez...what a friggen idiot!Bush said"we go over there so they won't come over here"...think about it.Look what's going on.They're like a nest of angry hornets....killing each other right and left(and that's not OUR fault).I love my country.And I don't see this alarm call for Government spying and such...loss of freedoms.Quite the contrary.I feel alot safer here than I would in Europe.No question.I can get up in the morning...do what I want...without worrying"are they gonna kick my door in cause they know I'm a believer?"Just what HAS the government taken away from us?(and puleeese,don't say "taxes".)

And if you really think "they" don't know all you're doing...then you're being naive.(I don't mean "personal stuff,like you know,wiping yer azz or something).They could yank ya off the street any time they wanted to.But they'd never really get away with that stuff...the US is too "on the level".Those movies are just that...MOVIES.And granted,there's SOME truth to SOME of the stuff we see out there.But NOTHING like a remake of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union...that aint gonna happen.The American people would never allow that to occur.They'd need to implement gun control with mass seizing of arms.Aint gonna happen.We DO love our guns...and know how to use em.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/9/2010 @ 1:20 AM *

Meh, they'v had the cars in OKC for a while (cameras on the roof)

Stevetwo; "I can only conclude from your statement that you believe man is incapable of responsibility and freedom, of fidelity and courage, that he not only cannot choose good from evil, but cannot even distinguish it, let alone practice the choice."

Not at all. Man can choose between good and evil, and even distinguish between it. Unfortunately, a lot of men choose evil. Look at the increase in gang violence, and the increase of death by home invasion. The evil men are increasing, and becoming less fearful of repercussions. With this economy, and the influx of more vicious gangs from Mexico, and South America, it will only get worse.

---

blue07; "he's taking a pic of your card number AND your pin number"
worse than that. Some new credit cards have a chip embedded with your info. All the crook needs is a laptop, and software, and if he's within a few feet of you, he can capture that info.

---

What I see in the current state of this country is a lot of people suffering financially...and REALLY pissed about the Obama Presidency.Democratic Congress and such.Ya...Bush and them weren't perfect....we all know that.But at least he DID something about 9/11...and managed to get to the disaster sites and offer hope when they needed it.This is the current administration's view..."vote for this deal....THEN,we'll tell you/show you just how great it is"..WTH?Talk about ignorant.Geez.Would you or I go pay for a car without seeing it or at least driving it first?We're talkin Billions of dollars here,not yer $1000 car.If this is they're mentality...ya...we're definitely in deep,and might as well let the Jihadists come on over and do their thing.

You can thank the Federal Reserve, and its Keynesism economic policies for our current economic and political state. Actually, the Federal Reserve has been continually dismantling the American economy since 1913 - 97 years of failed, foolish monetary policy that has fueled every boom and bust cycle since the Feds inception. But, many don't even pay attention. Without the Fed, the government couldn't pay for its welfare/warfare statist programs. There would be no policing of the world, no extensions of military power into other peoples' back yards, no foreign policy that has led to the bloodshed, suffering, and hatred by the Middle East foisted upon them by the US Government for decades.

Consider this: What would we, as Americans, do if some large, powerful Middle East (ME) country continually interfered with our country's economy, infrastructure, and policies? What if same (ME) country stationed untold thousands of its troops in our country?

Would you be so keen on just letting them do what they wanted without, at least, resisting in some form or fashion?

I maintain that's its our government's foreign policy that has brought the hatred of scores of Middle Easterns to our doorstep - amongst other things such as embargoes, which we have no right to enforce upon another sovereign nation.

It is only recently that we are reaping what our government has been sowing for the last several decades.

"we wouldn't want to anger the foreign terrorists you know,with the threat of waterboarding to find out life and death info.Gosh,if they KNEW they'd be "tortured" for trying to kill Americans...they just might think twice...can't have that now.They need to know that whatever they do to our people,the punishment is three hots and a cot,along with their Cable Television and Al Jezeera stations.Maybe a couple o'satellite links there to AlQueda in the Arabian Penninsula as well.Wouldn't want to make em uncomfortable in any way"....THIS is the thinking in the present administration.Mustn't upset those radicals now.Geez....one of the stupidest remarks I heard was from ONE of those "High Ups" in the security department...you know,someone who has a VAST knowledge of Arab history and culture....they said...."we don't want to do anything that will aggravate the Muslim countries.If we go this route(it was something quite innocuous)they'll hate us."
This is from an Obama appointed aide partly in charge of our country's security and safety.Are they(our administration) REALLY so ignorant that they believe the United States would be seen as a "friend" to the hard line Muslim world by doing or not doing anything different than going after the killers of our people?They don't need a reason...they already have one....the "WEST" IS the enemy.

See the response above.

My vote's for the ouster of our present administration,and get some "world knowledgeable" people in there that'll keep this country the kickazz place it really is.Imagine...bowing down to the Saudi King.Geez...what a friggen idiot!Bush said"we go over there so they won't come over here"...think about it.Look what's going on.They're like a nest of angry hornets....killing each other right and left(and that's not OUR fault).I love my country.And I don't see this alarm call for Government spying and such...loss of freedoms.Quite the contrary.I feel alot safer here than I would in Europe.No question.I can get up in the morning...do what I want...without worrying"are they gonna kick my door in cause they know I'm a believer?"Just what HAS the government taken away from us?(and puleeese,don't say "taxes".)

It is this kind of sentiment that is the problem with this nation. Why do we need to do anything to or for other sovereign nations? Why must we continually mettle in the affairs of others?

You want to end much of the violence in this world, then turn to commerce, not more violence. Federic Bastiat once wrote, "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will."

Thomas Jefferson in 1801, wrote, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none."

And if you really think "they" don't know all you're doing...then you're being naive.(I don't mean "personal stuff,like you know,wiping yer azz or something).They could yank ya off the street any time they wanted to.But they'd never really get away with that stuff...the US is too "on the level".Those movies are just that...MOVIES.And granted,there's SOME truth to SOME of the stuff we see out there.But NOTHING like a remake of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union...that aint gonna happen.The American people would never allow that to occur.They'd need to implement gun control with mass seizing of arms.Aint gonna happen.We DO love our guns...and know how to use em.

I've stated this before, but I'll do so again.

They (the government) will never "know" enough about you. They will continually harass, interfere, manipulate, and control you until they "know" more. There is no end to what they want to "know." This has historically been the case with all governments.

Further, much of our country's laws and statutes are already fashioned after Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. I provided an example of this earlier, but there are many more. You only need to do a little research on your own.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/9/2010 @ 4:26 PM *

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Not at all. Man can choose between good and evil, and even distinguish between it. Unfortunately, a lot of men choose evil. Look at the increase in gang violence, and the increase of death by home invasion. The evil men are increasing, and becoming less fearful of repercussions. With this economy, and the influx of more vicious gangs from Mexico, and South America, it will only get worse.

You're only looking at the result of the problem, rather than the problem itself.

Perhaps, you should look to the government for the true evil we, as individuals, face.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/9/2010 @ 4:26 PM *

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Well it's a huge,complicated system...the world system.There are no easy answers.I agree about the "FED"...though I'm not very informed about what it actually does...but I watched a video a while back about "the Obama Deception"...quite eye opening.And I'm sure that a lot of it may very well be factual.IDK.The ME countries don't hate us because we're using military force(though that's not helping our image).They
hate" us because we are "the infidels" spoken of in their Quaran.That's the whole point I was making about "appeasement".You're NOT going to appease a people that believe it is Allah's(God's)will to purge the Earth from ungodly others---the West mainly.

I did ask to list some "lost freedoms" we're supposedly losing.You seem very informed of some of these statements you've made(and I mean that in a good way).I just don't see the Government being as "evil" as it's made out to be.

A study of history will reveal...#1...a biggie....the Crusades.Okay.America wasn't even around then.So the Muslims are "getting even" for the Crusades....against America.2nd...I agree there should be MORE restraint with our leader's decisions to enter another country and start shooting...yes...I totally agree with that.And yes,if the tables were turned,you bet I'd be fighting back against someone attacking this country.But it won't happen.You know WHY it won't happen?It won't happen because America will literally flatten the ground with the bodies of anyone who would be stupid enough to attempt such suicide.THIS is the way it MUST be.And stay.I'm not advocating senseless warfare on others who don't agree with us.Not at all.But today's world is very different than it was in the 1st and 2nd world war scenarios.

We weren't fighting Muslim Extremists then.We were battling Hitler's fascism.And all that went with it.AND the Japanese threat.And Mussolini.And the rest.Today's fight is not with other Governments...I think we can pretty much agree on that.The threat is REAL and it isn't going to go away.So we have to continue to keep the allies we have....entangled or not.America is no longer isolated safely from the rest of the world.Government MUST serve the people...and I believe it does.But it must also be the guardian of a free people....whether here,or abroad.We HAVE to be willing to stand by our ME allies...and we DO have some.Just as they MUST be willing to share information and actively seek out those that are trying to overturn and destroy what freedoms there are already.Although America is and MUST remain the most powerful country on Earth,financially,militarily,and the rest...we have to REMEMBER the things like 9/11.And the Gas chambers.And the Saddams.If the world is "afraid" of America's might(which our allies are NOT(that's good)...then that's how it needs to be in today's world.

I think our Government understands this...as "sad" as that seems....and will do the right thing by the American People and others.It's too bad really that the Osama Bin Ladens and the rest of em like that are continuing to bring grief upon their OWN people by exhorting them to kill Americans and "infidels".Think of all the lives that would have been saved had Saddam took the offer to vacate the presidency over there,and step aside.Okay...I know...what RIGHT did we have to tell him what to do?Has anyone revealed the understories of his brutal regime..what was going on for YEARS and YEARS over there against his OWN ARAB people.Nope...small bits of things.But the Iraqis had been crying out for years to the WEST to DO SOMETHING.Their own nations stood idly by while he terrorized his own country...and those around him.He had nothing but contempt for his own people,and his neighbors.Absolute control...that's what he was after.Just like Hitler.Stalin.And the others.So America is "called upon"...and tries to do the right thing.And to shield their own lack of commitment to their own nation(s) and people...the Arab world "blames" the US for the violence,and subsequent "hatred" from the Muslim world.They fail their own...and we get blamed.Sound about right?WHY weren't they doing something to alleviate the suffering of their own(the Arab Nations).Too busy"minding their own business?"Did that work?If we just"mind our own business"...will THAT work?I'm gonna say it cause I care about others and especially my American Homeland and people...but the world NEEDS to be afraid of the US.That's right.They need to REALLY understand...if they attempt some BS jive over here...they'll be dealin with MASS QUANTITIES of deadly weaponry that'll settle the issue right pronto.I'm no HAWK...okay....but the truth is....unreasoning people who seek our destruction are not going to be swayed by "we mean you no harm dear Muslim Brothers".They don't WANT us to be their "friends"..that's the whole deal in a nutshell.

There is an interesting paradox behind this whole "Muslim Terrorist" thing.You know how badly Bush got beat up about "wiretapping"...even though he was trying to make it clear that it wasn't being used against American Citizens(which I totally believe)Trust this...the Muslim world(Jihadists and terrorists especially)were watching this deal as well...seeing which way the wind in this country was gonna be blowing.Did it bode favorably for us,or them?

Look at the bombs that were sent recently through the mail.Intercepted,yes?Yes.But what knowledge NOW do the extremists have by running that deal.

What I'm saying is...the "terrorists" are continually seeking ways to get information from us and other countries...how we do things...what we're TRYING to do.The news is FULL of INFORMATION to the terrorists about what we're doing and the like.The offshoot to this...speaking of losing freedoms...is that the Government must implement MORE aggressive ways to uncover disasters like 9/11.And the people feel a sense of "big Brother" watching them.(I don't,but lots do).The terrorists are watching these things as well.IF they push hard enough...at the right places and time,the Government is going to naturally react,and that means MORE "loss of freedoms".(actually,the illusion of loss is sharp,but the reality is....there is no REAL loss of freedom).So the less the Government enacts certain safeguards,the more possible it becomes for another 9/11 or worse.The terrorists win,we(and our allies)lose.Make sense?I'm saying....you and I DO NOT HONESTLY KNOW the extent of the American Government's continuous work at keeping us safe,and trying to stop things BEFORE they have a chance to become reality.And we don't understand sometimes WHY our Government may be doing a certain thing.But I truly believe our Government(though,I don't think Obama and his "friends" in Washington care much about the American ideals and hopes)...is watching out for this country and doing what's necessary "behind the scenes"(that we will never see or hear about).I do think that this present administration needs to go...and a new set of eyes be put in it's place.Business as usual?Well...probably mostly.But we do need someone who can speak from their heart with conviction about their LOVE of this country,and the things it is going to take to keep this country alive and safe and strong.We all know money talks..bs walks.And the rich are gonna be in power for a LONG time.We know that.It's the way things are.You and I will most likely NEVER have gazillions of dollars.We won't be calling the shots..as some are now(and have ALWAYS done).I know Obama's not making these decisions on his own...for one...he's not tuned in enough to think that deep.

If I have to walk through a screener at the airport that x-rays me through my clothes...and shows my private parts"kinda"...shit,who cares?I don't.If it stops some sick prick from gettin on my flight(or any other)...great!I'd rather have that than deal with my child(or anyone elses) getting blown out of the sky because"we were afraid they might get offended"...or...I'm losing my privacy...see there....that big dick hangin there,yep,that's mine alright!"

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/10/2010 @ 2:07 AM *

[quote]Well it's a huge,complicated system...the world system.There are no easy answers.I agree about the "FED"...though I'm not very informed about what it actually does...but I watched a video a while back about "the Obama Deception"...quite eye opening.And I'm sure that a lot of it may very well be factual.IDK.[quote]

It's only complicated by the central banking system and Keynesian Economics. Yes, the "world system" is large. But, complicated needlessly by those with more to gain by keeping the system in its current state.

The ME countries don't hate us because we're using military force(though that's not helping our image).They
hate" us because we are "the infidels" spoken of in their Quaran.That's the whole point I was making about "appeasement".You're NOT going to appease a people that believe it is Allah's(God's)will to purge the Earth from ungodly others---the West mainly.

They most certainly do hate us for our use of military force. Add to that our constant interference into their way of life - remember one of the rationales for the war with Iraq was to "bring democracy to the middle east." The West, with the U.S. leading the charge, has been manipulating, torturing, murdering, and installing entire governments in the Middle East - have we forgotten the coup of 1953 to install the Shah of Iran? This led to the rise to power 25 years later of Ayatollah Khomeini, and the Jimmy Carter debacle that followed. Of course, you reap what you sow.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: we mettle in the affairs of sovereign nations. It is not only unjust, it is immoral and completely contrary to the fundamental beliefs, ideals and practices of a free society. Oh, and lest we forget, it is a completely wasteful misappropriation of public funds (thanks Federal Reserve).

I did ask to list some "lost freedoms" we're supposedly losing.You seem very informed of some of these statements you've made(and I mean that in a good way).I just don't see the Government being as "evil" as it's made out to be.

You want a list. Okay, let's look for a moment at one heinous act from Bush's reign, which led to the expansion of governmental powers, and the erosion of 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th Amendment "protected" rights and freedoms: the PATRIOT Act.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH
• The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition of
terrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage in
nonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselves
labeled as terrorists.
• The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepers
of any other records if they reveal that the government
requested information on their clients or members in the
course of an investigation. It has become a crime for these
individuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell you
that you are under investigation.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION
• Government agents may now monitor the First Amendmentprotected
activities of religious and political institutions, and
then infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminal
activity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abiding
religious and political groups.
• You may now be the subject of a government investigation
simply because of the political, activist, or advocacy
groups you are involved in, or the statements you make
within these groups.

1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS GOVERNMENT INFORMATION
• A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encourages
federal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit access
to government records through Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) requests.
• The Government has conducted immigration hearings in
secret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were once
open to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants
have already been deported in secret.

4th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES &SEIZURES
• Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office
without showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significant
purpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may also
monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording
every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.
• Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor,
employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into
“terrorism.” The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government.
• Judicial oversight of secret searches has been effectively minimized. The Patriot Act directs judges to
consent to secret searches based only on the Government’s assertion that a “significant” purpose of
an investigation is gathering information related to “terrorism,” as the government defines it.

5th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS & FREEDOM FROM BEING HELD WITHOUT CHARGE
• Americans can now be jailed without a formal charge & without the right to confront the witnesses or
evidence against them. American citizens are now being held in military jails without charge and without
a clear path of appeal for their indefinite confinement.
• Hundreds of Arab, Muslim and South Asian men were rounded up in the Ashcroft raids following
September 11, and held for weeks without charges until all were cleared of terrorism charges
6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION
• Hundreds of U.S. residents have been detained for months at a time, and denied access to the advice
and advocacy of an attorney. The Government may now monitor conversations between attorneys &
clients in federal jails.
• The Bush Administration filed papers in court that arguing that an American citizen held in a military
jail without charge should be denied access to legal counsel because such access would interfere with
the process of his interrogation.

6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL
• The U.S. Government may now jail its residents and citizens indefinitely without charge & without a public trial.

8th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENTS
• The U.S. Government has taken into custody individuals they identify as “material witnesses,” transported
them across the country, and held them for months in solitary confinement without charge or
contact with their family.
• According to the Justice Department’s own Inspector General, immigrant men rounded up in the
Ashcroft raids following September 11 and held in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, NY
were subjected to a pattern of “physical and verbal abuse.”

14th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION
• Over 82,000 men from Arab, Muslim and South Asian countries registered with the Government
under the Special Registration program. Over 13,000 are now in deportation proceedings. None
have been charged with terrorism.

(source: NY ACLU)

These were rights and freedoms stripped from the American people under just one act. There are tens of thousands of laws on the books just on the Federal side of the government.

We have lost so much more than most even realize.

A study of history will reveal...#1...a biggie....the Crusades.Okay.America wasn't even around then.So the Muslims are "getting even" for the Crusades....against America.2nd...I agree there should be MORE restraint with our leader's decisions to enter another country and start shooting...yes...I totally agree with that.And yes,if the tables were turned,you bet I'd be fighting back against someone attacking this country.But it won't happen.You know WHY it won't happen?It won't happen because America will literally flatten the ground with the bodies of anyone who would be stupid enough to attempt such suicide.THIS is the way it MUST be.And stay.I'm not advocating senseless warfare on others who don't agree with us.Not at all.But today's world is very different than it was in the 1st and 2nd world war scenarios.

The Crusades...really?!

So, wow...okay. I'll just stop there.

We weren't fighting Muslim Extremists then.We were battling Hitler's fascism.And all that went with it.AND the Japanese threat.And Mussolini.And the rest.Today's fight is not with other Governments...I think we can pretty much agree on that.The threat is REAL and it isn't going to go away.So we have to continue to keep the allies we have....entangled or not.America is no longer isolated safely from the rest of the world.Government MUST serve the people...and I believe it does.But it must also be the guardian of a free people....whether here,or abroad.We HAVE to be willing to stand by our ME allies...and we DO have some.Just as they MUST be willing to share information and actively seek out those that are trying to overturn and destroy what freedoms there are already.

Extremist are extremist, no matter their creed, color, nationality or religion. Extremists are just that, extreme in their beliefs and actions. They are, fortunately, few and far between. Unfortunately, if America continues on its current course, we will be fighting more and more of them. There's nothing like a common imperialistic, militaristic enemy for recruiting new troops.

Although America is and MUST remain the most powerful country on Earth,financially,militarily,and the rest...we have to REMEMBER the things like 9/11.And the Gas chambers.And the Saddams.If the world is "afraid" of America's might(which our allies are NOT(that's good)...then that's how it needs to be in today's world.

You know, the same things were said about the British Empire not too long ago. Nothing lasts forever - nor should it.

So, you're okay with America throwing around its "might" in the name of keeping us "safe and secure"?

Are you aware of the definition of insanity?

I think our Government understands this...as "sad" as that seems....and will do the right thing by the American People and others.It's too bad really that the Osama Bin Ladens and the rest of em like that are continuing to bring grief upon their OWN people by exhorting them to kill Americans and "infidels".Think of all the lives that would have been saved had Saddam took the offer to vacate the presidency over there,and step aside.Okay...I know...what RIGHT did we have to tell him what to do?Has anyone revealed the understories of his brutal regime..what was going on for YEARS and YEARS over there against his OWN ARAB people.Nope...small bits of things.But the Iraqis had been crying out for years to the WEST to DO SOMETHING.Their own nations stood idly by while he terrorized his own country...and those around him.He had nothing but contempt for his own people,and his neighbors.Absolute control...that's what he was after.Just like Hitler.Stalin.And the others.So America is "called upon"...and tries to do the right thing.And to shield their own lack of commitment to their own nation(s) and people...the Arab world "blames" the US for the violence,and subsequent "hatred" from the Muslim world.They fail their own...and we get blamed.Sound about right?WHY weren't they doing something to alleviate the suffering of their own(the Arab Nations).Too busy"minding their own business?"Did that work?If we just"mind our own business"...will THAT work?I'm gonna say it cause I care about others and especially my American Homeland and people...but the world NEEDS to be afraid of the US.That's right.They need to REALLY understand...if they attempt some BS jive over here...they'll be dealin with MASS QUANTITIES of deadly weaponry that'll settle the issue right pronto.I'm no HAWK...okay....but the truth is....unreasoning people who seek our destruction are not going to be swayed by "we mean you no harm dear Muslim Brothers".They don't WANT us to be their "friends"..that's the whole deal in a nutshell.

There is an interesting paradox behind this whole "Muslim Terrorist" thing.You know how badly Bush got beat up about "wiretapping"...even though he was trying to make it clear that it wasn't being used against American Citizens(which I totally believe)Trust this...the Muslim world(Jihadists and terrorists especially)were watching this deal as well...seeing which way the wind in this country was gonna be blowing.Did it bode favorably for us,or them?

Look at the bombs that were sent recently through the mail.Intercepted,yes?Yes.But what knowledge NOW do the extremists have by running that deal.

What I'm saying is...the "terrorists" are continually seeking ways to get information from us and other countries...how we do things...what we're TRYING to do.The news is FULL of INFORMATION to the terrorists about what we're doing and the like.The offshoot to this...speaking of losing freedoms...is that the Government must implement MORE aggressive ways to uncover disasters like 9/11.And the people feel a sense of "big Brother" watching them.(I don't,but lots do).The terrorists are watching these things as well.IF they push hard enough...at the right places and time,the Government is going to naturally react,and that means MORE "loss of freedoms".(actually,the illusion of loss is sharp,but the reality is....there is no REAL loss of freedom).So the less the Government enacts certain safeguards,the more possible it becomes for another 9/11 or worse.The terrorists win,we(and our allies)lose.Make sense?I'm saying....you and I DO NOT HONESTLY KNOW the extent of the American Government's continuous work at keeping us safe,and trying to stop things BEFORE they have a chance to become reality.And we don't understand sometimes WHY our Government may be doing a certain thing.But I truly believe our Government(though,I don't think Obama and his "friends" in Washington care much about the American ideals and hopes)...is watching out for this country and doing what's necessary "behind the scenes"(that we will never see or hear about).I do think that this present administration needs to go...and a new set of eyes be put in it's place.Business as usual?Well...probably mostly.But we do need someone who can speak from their heart with conviction about their LOVE of this country,and the things it is going to take to keep this country alive and safe and strong.We all know money talks..bs walks.And the rich are gonna be in power for a LONG time.We know that.It's the way things are.You and I will most likely NEVER have gazillions of dollars.We won't be calling the shots..as some are now(and have ALWAYS done).I know Obama's not making these decisions on his own...for one...he's not tuned in enough to think that deep.

You're espousing much of the same, "America needs to remain strong, kill its enemies, use violence to solve all of its problems, the government needs to keep us all safe from all harm, so on and so forth." This is merely rabble rousing, nothing more.

See my previous posts for my responses.

If I have to walk through a screener at the airport that x-rays me through my clothes...and shows my private parts"kinda"...shit,who cares?I don't.If it stops some sick prick from gettin on my flight(or any other)...great!I'd rather have that than deal with my child(or anyone elses) getting blown out of the sky because"we were afraid they might get offended"...or...I'm losing my privacy...see there....that big dick hangin there,yep,that's mine alright!"

Instead of me writing some long, drawn-out post, I'll post a snippet from a commercial pilot regarding security at airports. This person has experienced the unnecessary indignities more than I.

(Source: AirlineNightmare.com)

"In the 9 years since 9-11 there have been exactly 0 incidents of hijackings or terror attacks by individuals boarding domestic aircraft in this country (not an international flight originating from another country). When coupled with the facts that there are over 30,000 commercial departures per day with an average passenger load per flight easily exceeding 25, then this most recent mathematical history teaches us:

That the odds of being subject to a terrorist attack on a domestic (US) commercial airliner today are greater than 22 BILLION, 173 MILLION, 750 THOUSAND to 1 (22,173,750,000)! Woefully lower than getting hit by lightening, attacked by a shark and a refund from the IRS; all at the same time!

And I’m the one full of hot air for trying to bring reason to all this security-hyped nonsense? I’m the paranoid one for trying to raise your awareness to the pragmatic inevitability that short of full-blown x-rays and dogs up your butt you can’t stop every attack? No, unfortunately my mathematically-challenged and ‘Threat-Level’ terrified brethren, I’m just one of the few (with a set) standing up. Not standing up because I’m embarrassed by my body mind you. Not standing up because I’m in a hurry either, because if I were I certainly wouldn’t be wasting my time standing in the TSA ‘Rope & Grope’ line. No, I’m merely standing up for what makes sense.

And electronic strip-searches and indiscriminate fondling by our new ‘Brown-Shirts’ (Hitler Youth) brings nothing advantageous to the security issue and does everything to worsen it. Why? Because the borders of this country are so wide-open that no terrorist need bother with the TSA and all its anal-ness? Any half-wit al Qaeda that can manage to walk across the border (like ever one else) with a Stinger or RPG can just waltz up to any major airport, take aim and bring down you narrow-minded exhibitionists any day of the week! Yet here you are 9 years after September 11th none the wiser, or richer for that matter; continually reaching into your dwindling bag of liberties (and Dignity) and dolling out more and more for imagined security.

And obviously most of you don’t realize just how poorly our airline industry is doing these days; let alone how things really work. Do you think the major’s got together and demanded that the Air Marshalls move from First Class to Coach for nothing? I mean, what with a whopping 1000 or so total Marshalls extrapolated over the entire air-carrier network, what does a few (very few) First Class seats translate into anyway? And yes, getting hit in the bottom line does tend to get the big-boys (i.e. Delta, American, etc.) to do for us what this ever-bloating government that you all don’t seem to mind bending over for, would never do.

And no, I don’t think psychiatry is appropriate here. Perhaps brain surgery to remove your heads out of your collective asses would be more appropriate; because it appears that most of you haven’t figured out that all this FBS is just for show. And that government just wants more ways to flagellate you all; which apparently you’re not getting enough of yet.

So my advice for all you flaccid ones out there who take issue with people for standing up against such wasteful invasions of privacy is, buy plenty of KY Jelly. Because thanks to you holes of little resistance, this unrestrained government’s patoodling is just going to get harder, longer and more frequent!"

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/10/2010 @ 9:59 AM *

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I guess my comments on the Muslim Quaran's teachings didn't mean much.Oh well.All that's been said still doesn't alarm me about Government intrusion.I just aint seein it myself.Far as I know...we all are allowed our free speech,right to bear arms...and all the other rights that were set up.Wiretaps?Home surveillance?Ya...if yer in the Mafia or somethin.IF I am being watched...so what?All anyone's gonna see is me going about my little life,working,coming home.Whatever.I've really nothing to hide.If I did..well...guess I'd have to accept in a free society,my freedom may also be observed by others.IDK.

There is a saying..."In the multitude of counselors there is safety".Personally,I see nothing wrong with Government watching and monitoring groups or individuals that they "may" suspect something other than peaceful motives are being spread around.I say...Thank God they do keep an eye out.Truth be told...it's the real fear of Government"catching them" that is keeping a lid on things like this.It would be naive to think that radical,America Hating groups and individuals are not active in this country.Many who say"The Government should be eliminated"...eliminated and do what?Allow the Neo Nazis,or the KKK,or the radical Survivalists,or(you name it)to start a "new" government.If you think your rights are being stripped away now....better pray our Government stays in shape my man.

BTW...America doesn't NEED to do anything.....she's been loved and hated since her inception.This "battle" is bigger than you apparently see.It's not about flesh and blood.#1:we will ALWAYS be loved/hated because of our stance with Israel.There's a much bigger fight going on "behind the scenes" because we support and defend GOD's people than you or I can comprehend.Believe that.Or not.Doesn't matter really...except as to whose side yer on.With all her faults....I'm stayin with the winner here..America.How many times a day is "God Bless America" being sung across this great country.Plenty.And He's honoring that...and answering those prayers.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/10/2010 @ 1:34 PM *

I guess my comments on the Muslim Quaran's teachings didn't mean much.Oh well.

I'm aware of the Quran's teachings. Heck, I read one version of the Quran (there are a few available). But, much of the "kill the infidel" slogans are coming from the radicals within Islam - of course, we've done our part to help with the radical recruitment process. The average Muslim is just trying to live life as best he/she can. I've personally known a few Muslims, and they weren't shouting "kill the infidel." They were going about their businesses like the rest of us.

Growing up I was taught some pretty radical ideals about Christianity. But, as I got older, I realized they were just that, radical.

So, I'm not dismissing your concerns about the Quran's teachings, I'm just not so sure they are the threat you've been led to believe.

All that's been said still doesn't alarm me about Government intrusion.I just aint seein it myself.Far as I know...we all are allowed our free speech,right to bear arms...and all the other rights that were set up.Wiretaps?Home surveillance?Ya...if yer in the Mafia or somethin.IF I am being watched...so what?All anyone's gonna see is me going about my little life,working,coming home.Whatever.I've really nothing to hide.If I did..well...guess I'd have to accept in a free society,my freedom may also be observed by others.IDK.

However, this statement does concern me.

It seems you're more worried about whatever boogie man the government wants you to believe, yet you're willing to accept the government's trampling of your freedoms and rights. You asked to see a list of some freedoms that have been lost, and I provided it - just from one Federal act. But, it doesn't concern you in any way?

"Most people want security in this world, not liberty." (H.L. Mencken, 1956)

There is a saying..."In the multitude of counselors there is safety".Personally,I see nothing wrong with Government watching and monitoring groups or individuals that they "may" suspect something other than peaceful motives are being spread around.I say...Thank God they do keep an eye out.Truth be told...it's the real fear of Government"catching them" that is keeping a lid on things like this.It would be naive to think that radical,America Hating groups and individuals are not active in this country.Many who say"The Government should be eliminated"...eliminated and do what?Allow the Neo Nazis,or the KKK,or the radical Survivalists,or(you name it)to start a "new" government.If you think your rights are being stripped away now....better pray our Government stays in shape my man.

I appreciate the quote from Proverbs, but faith will not be enough to prevent government tyranny and oppression.

It frightens me to no end that this government has become so powerful that it can make criminals out of those who "may" do something. When government prosecutes crimes of thought, the choices of man become fodder upon the altar of political demigods. Anyone, at anytime the government chooses, can be criminalized merely for thinking anything that is counter to the government - and, this doesn't worry you?

Has our country really fallen this far? Have the sacrifices of our forefathers really been for naught?

"Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves." (D.H. Lawrence, 1922)

BTW...America doesn't NEED to do anything.....she's been loved and hated since her inception.This "battle" is bigger than you apparently see.It's not about flesh and blood.#1:we will ALWAYS be loved/hated because of our stance with Israel.There's a much bigger fight going on "behind the scenes" because we support and defend GOD's people than you or I can comprehend.Believe that.Or not.Doesn't matter really...except as to whose side yer on.With all her faults....I'm stayin with the winner here..America.How many times a day is "God Bless America" being sung across this great country.Plenty.And He's honoring that...and answering those prayers.

More rabble rousing. But, I do appreciate your convictions.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/10/2010 @ 2:35 PM *

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Rabble Rousing? Yep...that'd be me alright!Rabble...that rhymes with "scrabble"...okay...here's my words....GOD IS IN CONTROL.Measley,peasly ideas that"government's running the show"...pfffft!Not my show."ye shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall make you free".That's MY credo.Control is an illusion my friend.ONLY an illusion.There IS no power but that of GOD.The powers that be are subject to the power of GOD.When He says..."it's time"....are you or I gonna stop Him?

I like you Steve...honestly.You have a good head on your shoulders.You're very tuned in to important things.They are important.But for me I'm not gonna let my eyes deceive me into a false reality(fear).My truth is that God is faithful.And that His word is true and set.He commanded His followers"Be not afraid...for it is I".Therefore...I'm NOT going to be afraid...of life or death,this Government or any other.That's just me.Ignorant as it sounds.At any time,anywhere,anything could occur that would take my life.I believe my life is in God's hand...regardless of what I see around me.And I've been in some pretty precarious places in my 57 years.

NO ONE knows the mind of GOD.His ways are not our ways.One day,I believe I'll see Him as he really is.This is HIS world,His universe,His zx14!I'm as free as I need to be.What else do I need?He's given me everything here to enjoy.And the promise of Eternal Life in Him.Government interference?They can't stop me from DYING! "Death is swallowed up in Victory!""oh grave,WHERE is thy sting?"Yeah...I'm free bro."One day with the Lord is as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day"...."to be absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord"...I'm not worried about government control OR taking my rights away.Aint gonna happen as long as there's Christians here to continue doing good for others...here and abroad.See...simple really.No fear=I can do anything I want.EVERYTHING comes with a price.Are you willing to pay?Am I?

Your sig there..."the only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason"....what if...your "reason" includes destroying all that is not like you? Your beliefs.Your attitudes towards others(not sayin this is pointed at YOU...just anyone in general)I think you can see where this could go.Keep postin bro...good stuff...glad you're here and have a sweet bike to boot!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/10/2010 @ 5:26 PM *

Rabble Rousing? Yep...that'd be me alright!Rabble...that rhymes with "scrabble"...okay...here's my words....GOD IS IN CONTROL.Measley,peasly ideas that"government's running the show"...pfffft!Not my show."ye shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall make you free".That's MY credo.Control is an illusion my friend.ONLY an illusion.There IS no power but that of GOD.The powers that be are subject to the power of GOD.When He says..."it's time"....are you or I gonna stop Him?

I like you Steve...honestly.You have a good head on your shoulders.You're very tuned in to important things.They are important.But for me I'm not gonna let my eyes deceive me into a false reality(fear).My truth is that God is faithful.And that His word is true and set.He commanded His followers"Be not afraid...for it is I".Therefore...I'm NOT going to be afraid...of life or death,this Government or any other.That's just me.Ignorant as it sounds.At any time,anywhere,anything could occur that would take my life.I believe my life is in God's hand...regardless of what I see around me.And I've been in some pretty precarious places in my 57 years.

NO ONE knows the mind of GOD.His ways are not our ways.One day,I believe I'll see Him as he really is.This is HIS world,His universe,His zx14!I'm as free as I need to be.What else do I need?He's given me everything here to enjoy.And the promise of Eternal Life in Him.Government interference?They can't stop me from DYING! "Death is swallowed up in Victory!""oh grave,WHERE is thy sting?"Yeah...I'm free bro."One day with the Lord is as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day"...."to be absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord"...I'm not worried about government control OR taking my rights away.Aint gonna happen as long as there's Christians here to continue doing good for others...here and abroad.See...simple really.No fear=I can do anything I want.EVERYTHING comes with a price.Are you willing to pay?Am I?

blue07, I've been enjoying the debate. You have strong convictions and beliefs, which is generally a good thing.

I will not, however, debate religion.

Your sig there..."the only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason"....what if...your "reason" includes destroying all that is not like you? Your beliefs.Your attitudes towards others(not sayin this is pointed at YOU...just anyone in general)I think you can see where this could go.Keep postin bro...good stuff...glad you're here and have a sweet bike to boot!

"The first law of reason is this: what exists, exists, what is, is and from this irreducible bedrock principle, all knowledge is built. It is the foundation from which life is embraced.

Thinking is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts nor are they a means to discover them. Reason is our only way of grasping reality; it is our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss that we refuse to see. Faith and feelings are the darkness to reasons light. In rejecting reason, refusing to think, one embraces death." (Terry Goodkind)

Reason is based on thinking, which is based on choice - the most basic aspect of freedom. Why would I choose to destroy a group just because they are not like me, or don't believe as I do? That would be contrary to a free society, a contradiction in reason.

"A contradiction can not exist in reality. Not in part, nor in whole. To believe in a contradiction is to abdicate your belief in the existence of the world around you and the nature of the things in it, to instead embrace any random impulse that strikes your fancy is to imagine something is real simply because you wish it were. A thing is what it is, it is itself. There can be no contradictions." (Terry Goodkind)

Thanks, blue about the bike. It is a lot of fun. I can't imagine why I didn't get one sooner.

Also, if you want to continue this discussion. It may be better to go in the "Off-Topic" section. This discussion has gone a bit off-topic.

* Last updated by: stevetwo on 11/10/2010 @ 7:03 PM *

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Just like On-Star in cars. Anything the government tries to con us into believing is made only to HELP us will ALWAYS be used by them to Control us. Technology for the sake of making our lives better is just an illusion we are fed so we all feel better about Big Brother taking our freedom bit by bit. Wow, I must be bitter today. Later guys.

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There IS no power but that of GOD.The powers that be are subject to the power of GOD.When He says..."it's time"....are you or I gonna stop Him?

You are right , Blue but that does not mean you let God make all your choices when He presents you with choices to work through Him. Some things ---out of our control, no clear solution. The BIG GUY has our back then. Other times, I believe he wants us to use the brains he gave us.

There is certainly a lot more serious oppression in the world than speed cams but such monitoring devices are a symptom of the problem. Like I mentioned earlier....give an inch; lose a mile.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/15/2010 @ 1:19 PM *

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