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Thread: Ping Hub!

Created on: 12/26/22 11:02 AM

Replies: 28

Kruz


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Ping Hub&#x21&#x3b;
12/26/22 11:02 AM

Hubstinator what is your take on this? For '21 and on RSV4s, Aprilia reduced to 20mm chain slack down from 30mm recommended on '20 and prior RSV4 models, see swingarm sticker below, also in the Owners Manual, not sure about the Service Manual as I haven't bought one yet.

A brand new '22 RSV4 just grenaded the countershaft bearing and destroyed the transmission with bearing debris and Aprilia is denying the $5000 warranty claim saying the chain was adjusted too tight. Those of us with '21 and '22s are concerned as we have been using the 20mm spec and it feels too tight.

Your text to link here...

I checked the Service Manual specs on all my other bikes and here were the results:

'06 ZX-14 32-38mm
'09 ZX-6R 30-40mm
'11 ZX-10R 25-35mm
'15 CBR1000RR Repsol Edition 25-35mm
'16 ZX-10R 25-35mm
'16 Ducati 959 Panigale 41-43 mm


* Last updated by: Kruz on 12/26/2022 @ 11:17 AM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/26/22 12:52 PM

Hum, late model 14r is 25-30mm. I run like a 2" slack. Real loose in other words. Tight I found it's mis-shifts if too tight. I'd run it loose and key tooth to chain link when changing tires. Swingarm shortens I think, when it goes under the wheel well. That should bend the sprocket shaft to load the bearings.

Run loose, it wont jump a tooth and probably shift better.



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 9:56 AM

Thanks Hubster, my thoughts exactly, always run em a little loose to protect the counter shaft bearings and transmission. When I start noticing the slack on throttle pickup exiting a corner is when I readjust the chain slack. What effect does the elastomerics in the final drive cush hub play here? It seems like you would beat the hell out of the rubber hub inserts before the countershaft bearings would fail if the chain was too tight. Your thoughts?


* Last updated by: Kruz on 12/27/2022 @ 9:57 AM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Kruz


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Ping Hub&#x21&#x3b;
12/27/22 10:01 AM

Have you seen a countershaft bearing failure like this before Hub? Looks like the oil seal has failed completely with the seal garter spring extruded out.

You can see the bearing races and balls, looks like the ball race has disintegrated. Not sure of the miles but it's a '22 RSV4 so I'm assuming very low miles.

The OP says he did install a 520 chain and sprockets down from the OEM 525 chain. Aprilia is denying warranty claiming it failed because of the aftermarket chain and also claiming it was adjusted too tight.

I have not seen a failure like this before, especially on a brand new machine.

All of us RSV4 owners are holding our breath to see if they finally honor the warranty claim.


* Last updated by: Kruz on 12/27/2022 @ 10:10 AM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Grn14


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 11:34 AM

Nice work on that master link...lolHe's been riding it like that?

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 12:18 PM

always run em a little loose to protect the counter shaft bearings and transmission.

Uncrated, the 14 have them tight for shipping. I'd say that tight would not help the longevity of the bearing of the engine or rear wheel bearings. Plus the churning and shearing away of the pins as it goes around the counter shaft and leaves a wider arch around the pin? That tight adds friction. That's where the stretch comes in. The counting of the 20 pins and measuring from there.

But to set it to book of ether gen's mm/inch, that is plenty of slack off of the arch, the load off both bearing ends, the less friction of the chain rolling, yes book is loose for that.

When I start noticing the slack on throttle pickup exiting a corner is when I readjust the chain slack.

It can't be from the chain wearing out. I've been swapping tires and the slack still winds up at the same position. I'm having a back to back wear test with Vic, and whatever lube he uses, and me with grease. If you want my opinion of that chain and engine case, that to me looks too dry. It should be caked with road dust and debris.

How many times per mileage do you lube the chain? I'm every 300mi and I never wipe the frame/rim off till I change tires. Helped a rider at the track this year: he mentioned an old turner's quote saying something like, 'lets make some HP.' He then started to lube the chain. If you take that bike out for the sport of it, I'd be on that lube every time out.

And that chain does no look OEM? Looks heavy duty. Your chain look the same? Weight saving links?

Something is off, Kruz? Sure it's not the oil degrading? Shifts real smooth when fresh, then sort of signs off close to its regular interval change?

Because, if I set it book, I miss-shifts more. I tried it loose and it seemed to work for me. I think of boiling water, turn the heat off, it stops boiling. So less slack means quick off, on lift, that top rung is going slack, and if it needs that touch of mesh of the dog into the slot, I've got a lot of give at the top rung and seems to stop, if I throw the sloppy shift at it.

What effect does the elastomerics in the final drive cush hub play here?

I'm thing button style cush drive? Sprocket carrier has dowel pins; those slide into steel inner and outer rings with the rubber bonded in the middle of those two rings. That's all the rubber needed for the cush effect. How long a load would those be in from one tight chain?...

...

It seems like you would beat the hell
out of the rubber hub inserts before the countershaft bearings would fail if the chain was too tight.

I'm trying to walk the forensics and point to the cush vs degrading memory set for how long tight is tight? Then you're right, see if that cush drive is rumpled as shit, tag your it. But if that cush drive is tight as new? Back to the dealer rep and explain yourself out of that one.

And say tight is friction. Say that chain looks too dry to me. Say if it was tight, the heat might bite, a lot of rust and powder around those plates. But it does not look it.

BTW, how is the 959 duc? Any problems with that, who handles better? Who has the grunt? Are you saying the ape is more fun? WOT gives?



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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 12:19 PM

Good call, Grn. I missed that.



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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 12:43 PM

Now I'm reading the thread... Me bad. And that ends that. Should have waited past warrantee. It's the easiest way out is stay stock. Can't question warranty if it's still OEM. Too many changes to go back and forth who to blame.



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 6:50 PM

Hello Hub, it's good to see that you still have it....

You're getting better with age my friend, like a fine vintage bordeaux....

All good points on your analysis and to Mr. Grn's point, I noticed that master link rivet was FUBAR, don't know when that happened but assumed when the C'shaft bearing failed it hung that rivet on something, don't know for sure.

I sent a personal email to Ed Cook at AF1 Racing in Austin, TX, US distributor and he sent me back the following detailed response. He's a great guy, races Aprilia's and knows his stuff:

Swingarm did change quite a bit in 21. Less room for a loose chain on the 21+s

I haven’t really paid attention to the exact specs. Looser is certainly way better than too tight. I like to see a good inch of up and down. Best to double check it with a rider on board too. I’m very concerned with suspension binding from a too tight chain.

One very important thing, with the nut being on the LH side, the chain slack can really change when you put final torque on the axle, it walks back as all the slop is taken up. You have to be very careful. I preload the chain with a wrench jammed in the sprocket so the wheel is pulled forward as I tighten axle nut to final.

I actually prefer the old aprilias with the axle nut on the RH side. I know lots of V4 racers have flipped their axles to make chain adjusts easier.

For that bearing to fail like that, the chain almost had to be guitar string tight. He had to have heard creaking just sitting on it. That is not a little bearing, and think about how strong it is to deal with 217hp and lots of torque. Never seen a bad bearing there before.

Tough case to prove warranty responsibility either way….a very odd bad bearing or a mechanic with 4 thumbs that let it go out way too tight.


Ed Cook

Aprilia / Vespa / Piaggio / Moto-Guzzi / Zero / Ural / Energica / SWM / Stealth / Griiip / Pre-Owned

AF1 Racing
9900 North Interstate 35
Austin, TX 78753
Tuesday – Friday 10am - 6pm CST, Saturday 10-5

Dealership: www.af1racingaustin.com
Shop Online: www.af1racing.com
Forums: www.apriliaforum.com / www.ebrforum.com


* Last updated by: Kruz on 12/27/2022 @ 6:51 PM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/27/22 6:51 PM

After reading 6 pages worth, I'd hound the dealer and have a 'goodwill' approach to it, where the factory pays for parts, owner pays for labor.



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/28/22 6:20 AM

Good call Hubster, that may be the way it all plays out in the end.......



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/28/22 7:04 PM

BTW, you can tell Ed I figured out FI. I said some comment about function and he comes back and says, 'that's the way it works.' That was no fucking answer, so I ramped it up to piss him off and got booted off.

Just came back from looking at a 959. Pristine condition, under 2,500mi. It would have killed my back. A full on race stance. Guy at a duc site said to buy audi bikes, was basically what he was saying. Duc was junk up till the takeover ? Sound right?



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/29/22 3:41 PM

Ed's been pretty helpful to me Hub, he's been really good to get back with answers on the Aprilia and he's pretty much been spot on.

The 959 is a beautiful little bike, mines a '16 so maybe an Audi bike?

Mine has been as reliable so far as any Japanese machine I've owned, zero issues to report really in 6 years.

It does run hot though, typically 125 + ambient so on an 80 F summer morning it runs right at 205 F coolant temperature.

It will also boil your spuds in the bag from the heat coming off the back cylinder. When I'm making my final approach to land the 959 I have my legs splayed way out to cool the jewels when I drop below 30 mph.

It handles like a dream but is a tad stiff and taut on it's suspenders.

Power is amazingly useable and the bike gets down the road as quick as any liter bike really.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/29/22 8:55 PM

Thanks Kruz. Na, just goofing on the guy between you and me. Guy couldn't answer the questions I was asking. I've been reading up on the chestnuts roasting on an [almost] open fire. That does not bother me. Year round I'm sweats and overall thick. Guy was well over kbb's dealer used, and he thinks those rare pipes and clear glass clutch cover is worth him sitting and waiting for something to hatch, be my guest. Better I look at something leftover new for the same price almost. And no I didn't call him on it. I more sat on it and would have to raise the bars.

Race season has been over for months. Been working on the nephews crash bike. Chasing OEM parts as I go along. He sends me the parts he wants on. Bike is pretty much done and gone, so I'm twiddling the fingers till the call to the shop later next year.

I need a little entertainment to get this out of my system. I'll just go in a look around. Cool the jets on the salesman and just look at the hardware for that price. They even admit you are overpaying for it.

I'd be a fool to sell this ST1100. Such a sweet ride. But life is getting short, better I keep flipping them. Never will I give up the 14. Makes me appreciate swapping that 14 against others. Though that HD dirt bike looks impressive. Going to revisit that bike as well.


* Last updated by: Hub on 12/29/2022 @ 8:58 PM *



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/30/22 8:34 AM

Hubster it sounds like you have a lot going on and it was a definite pass on the 959. Can't say I blame you, it's a great bike with a lot of Italian V2 character and charm but a very focused, narrow band performance range, works best on a smooth race track where it is sublime, bumpy back roads...uhhh...not so much! They are a lovely bike to look at though. I hear you on time running short, same here so I bought the Aprilia, not taking anything with me when I check out anyway. I know you had a bad experience with your Tuono but I can't say enough good things about my Aprilia RSV4, especially after adding the Akra and De-Katt tune, its almost the perfect sportsbike now, so bloody fast and effortless handling and that lovely 65 degree V-4 growl is like nothing else on the planet. I plan to keep my '06 ZX-14, the old girl is coming up fast on her 17th birthday, never would have believed I would keep this bike so long but it's the only all rounder in my fleet. It's comfortable on a long freeway cruise and then can hold it's own on a twisty backroad with any of my literbikes.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/30/22 9:52 AM

I know you had a bad experience with your Tuono but I can't say enough good things about my Aprilia RSV4,

Hold on... I read a road test on the Tuono and he nailed every point. I was a great bike. I just thought it would have more quality plastic connectors, rather than the connectors used in a computer tower. Minor nitpicking was all.

Engine [rotax] had a balancer and it was very smooth once past idle. Valve lash never moved. Trans was very tight and would snick in gear every time. Even a tuned up trackday rider couldn't escape me on the same bike. Scared the crap out of me not knowing the road, being so rusty. Rode to a duc dealer, guy comes out and sees the rear tire. I never looked all this time, but it had to be that ride chasing the other ape. Didn't see a chicken strip. It was right off the edge clean. Had to look at the front and still had a chicken strip.

Needless to say that thing handled like a dream. Probably the same handling you're on now. Found bmw sort of has the same handling as the inline does with the horizontal twin. But when those clowns pulled the snorkel, and of course I wanted to know what was the big change?

That was more for top end work, and here I am dropping the clutch at a light, the front wheel goes nowhere. Lost the grunt and could not believe those shittyits would want to lose that torque to lift the front wheel [unintentional] from a dead stop, just to get a few more yards away from the hardware in back of you.

Would I get another one? Sure, but been there done that experience on the brand. But looking around at the threads about getting the duc to handle, that thru me for a loop there. Then watched an old vid about taking an old suz, and taking both bikes to a track and then trade them off. Both riders went faster on an old suz gixer.

Are you too saying the ape handles out of the crate better than the duc? Because I could get on that thing and it would out ride me where I didn't need to even throw a click at it. What gives? You find that to be true? Again, is there something hidden like the steering is too quick like a Paso I remember riding decades ago?



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/30/22 8:21 PM

Hub it's kinda like asking me which Italian supermodel I'd like to go out with, you can't lose with either one really, just different strokes.

The Apes 65 degree V-4 and the Poonigales 90 degree V-2 both have similar power delivery characteristics, they're deceptively fast but feel like everything is happening in slow motion with the long spacing between power pulses keeping the tire hooked up and the flat exhaust tone bringing a sense of calm, if that makes any sense.

The 959 has the monocoque frame which works better than it's larger siblings the V-2 1199 and 1299 Panigales which tend to tie the bike up in knots with all their torque. The 959 is arguably the best handler of that bunch.

The frame on the RSV4 is mega, at the state of tune I'm at it just flat works and the sheer power on tap is enormous without feeling like it's overwhelming.

The 959 is slightly slower steering but rewards with unflappable stability when flopped over on it's ear. The Aprilia is an apex sniper, you just look for the apex and it finds it. Of the two the Duc is more stable but I think that's down to less power on tap.

Which is my favorite? I'd have to say the RSV4 ticks the most boxes, handling is at least as good as the Duc but it's got so much power on tap I'll never be able to use it all.

The 959 power I would say is very useable, you can thoroughly rinse the motor without ever feeling it's going to get away from you, the RSV4 I'm just beginning to explore the envelope with; but the outstanding traction control system makes it all manageable.

Excitement wise, the Ape takes an easy win, I really look forward to riding that thing, it loves to wheelie coming off 3rd gear corners with the AWC set on level 1, nice low floaters, thrilling but nothing scary.

The 959 likes to keep the front tire on the ground just doesn't have the beans to throw any scary shapes.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/31/22 10:40 AM

Well, that was an eye opener. That shut me right off for the twins... maybe.

I'm just after 1 of the unique sounds of 3 notes, in MHO. Those are the duc twin, any HD, and a yammie R1.

Good info, Kruz. I too look at them as beauty queens. When they open up, they're not driving you nuts complaining we're going for sushi... like any other day. She gets me there and back, how sweet is that?



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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
12/31/22 3:53 PM

Very sweet Hub! On another note, I had some bad luck yesterday out on my favorite road on the Aprilia. Long story short, repair crew was doing some half assed road resurfacing and I got stuck waiting for the follow me truck to lead us through about 1/2 mile of torn up road. I found out too late they had peeled off the top surface and put some kind of soil stabilizer (guessing?) down with a lot of water on it before laying chip seal. It was sloppy wet and I had to go through it as I had a line of vehicles behind me. I figured no sweat, I'll hose the grey slimey muck off in the morning....wrong! That crap got everywhere, a big mess and a pressure nozzle wouldn't blast it off. It had to be removed with a sponge and soapy water, took me half a day to scrub most of it off the bike, every nook and cranny and I still need to drop the lower fairing as it's all up in there as well, man was I ever pissed off! It's all up in the radiators, especially the lower one and I'm concerned because RSV4s tend to run a little on the warm side already. Do you know a good way to get that stuff out of the fins without damaging anything? It is a mess! A super high pressure washer might do it but might also damage the cooling fins.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Hub


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Ping Hub&#x21&#x3b;
12/31/22 10:10 PM

I'd try WD-40. As far as the radiator, probably gasoline w/soft brush might soften things up. Especially if it's oil based. Or try a vinegar and hydrogen peroxide mix, like a cup of vinny to 1 1/2oz of oxide. But that would be taking out the radiator and soak it in the solution. If it's painted black, don't know if that will eat the paint, but it sure will help eat any coolant build up.

Meaning, first you'd have to soak the radiator in the vinny mix, and have the radiator ends capped off. Or add a mix into the radiator then cap it off. Let it sit submerged for the outside. Inside stays in with the radiator sitting for a few days in the mix. Rinse with soap and water or just water.

WD
Gas
Apples and hair dye

One of those should work.


* Last updated by: Hub on 12/31/2022 @ 10:12 PM *



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piken


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Ping Hub&#x21&#x3b;
12/31/22 10:27 PM

After running through some freshly oiled roads.....


Pressure washer and choice of cleaner.





* Last updated by: piken on 12/31/2022 @ 10:35 PM *

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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
01/04/23 3:04 PM

Thanks folks, I ended using HVAC Condenser Coil foaming solvent based cleaner, soaked down the radiator and oil cooler, waited a few minutes and then applied my garden spray nozzle at right angles per Piken's diagram. It cleaned up nicely and was running 163 F today at 100 mph with a 55 F ambient temperature, so plenty cool! Also noticed it doesn't get hot when running it for long periods in the garage, used to jump right up to 220 F, now sits at around 205 F. Part of that is surely down to the Akrapovic pipe/catalyst delete and the Race ECU, the mapping is much richer everywhere.


* Last updated by: Kruz on 1/4/2023 @ 3:05 PM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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hagrid


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RE: Ping Hub!
01/05/23 7:53 AM

Mr. Caruso! Roaringly good to see you.

Have you inquired at NBC about reprising your crime-fighting role?



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

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Kruz


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RE: Ping Hub!
01/14/23 4:26 PM

Mr. Caruso! Roaringly good to see you.

Have you inquired at NBC about reprising your crime-fighting role?

Yessir, NBC made me a very generous offer to re-sign for another season on CSI Miami..... but seriously, now everyone is telling me I'm a dead ringer for Gordon Ramsey off of Hell's Kitchen..lol not making this stuff up!



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Rook


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RE: Ping Hub!
01/15/23 10:28 AM

You look pretty much like Gordon Ramsey.

I look like me except I now have hair.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, 2024 ZX-14R

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