Hello from Finland again everyone!!!

It's now that time of year again (even in Finland). People, even the "elderly" are taking their bikes out of their garages... Except for me perhaps... and I'm like amongst the youngest around... besides the point... but still... I'm f*cking pissed (off)!

So (as is tradition - in my life at least...) it's a new spring with a whole lot of new problems. This time its an unexpected one (arent't they always...). I was cleaning up the bike - thoroughly - before the riding season began. I was supposed to take the bike out of the garage yesterday after a major cleaning operation. And was "a bit" disapponted yesterday to notice that after the engine had warmed up, the warmup fast idle mode didn't stop. It idled 2000 RPM until the fan kicked in and continued (and would have to a point of overheating of course). After I was sure that it wasn't a glitch I shut the engine down - and said (you can imagine what...). So a diagnosis had to be made.

I first disconnected the negative battery terminal and waited for a few seconds before reconnecting (to reset the ECU). Started the bike - no difference - engine warm (display read 4 bars) and fan kicked in but idle still 2000 RPM. Shut down and restarted the bike for a few times but no difference. Then the guy who owns the warehouse where I store my bike for the winters (had bikes himself for like forever) noticed that when he twisted the throttle grip "backwards" the idle dropped. I then explained that's because this bike controls the idle through the throttle plates (not using an idle bypass valve) and so on...

So then I started looking at the throttle pulley and the mechanisms that would raise the idle for the cold start warmup mode. If I understood it correctly, it works as follows. There's no idle bypass air valve - not operated by a manual screw (constant idle) or a solenoid (high idle). Instead there's the secondary throttle control system which controls the secondary throttle plates via a step motor as ordered by the ECU (with respect to primary throttle position, engine RPM, gear position and maybe corrected by manifold absolute pressure and intake air temperature). And this secondary throttle control system controls also the cold start warmup mode via a secondary mechanism. If I remember correctly, at startup the secondary throttle plates open 100% and this on the other hand invokes a latch which pushes the primary throttle plates open also (like 1% or something - as adjusted - to the desired warmup idle speed). When the engine warms up, which is measured by the coolant temp sensor, the ECU then starts to close the secondaries which then frees up the primary throttle plates eventually "dropping" them off to the preset idle position (screw adjusted minimum position). Is this correct?

What I observed was the following. When the engine was warmed up and shut down i turned the ignition. There was the latch (operated apparently by the secondary throttle plate control mechanism) which turned down to catch up with the primary throttle pulley. At this point there was no gap beetween the two parts, the latch (apparently meant to keep the primary throttle plates more open at startup) was tucked to the primary throttle pulley. When I started the engine, the latch backed off (moved upwards) from the throttle pulley - which I interpreted as the throttle control system backing off the main throttle to allow the engine to idle at the normal (screw adjusted) preset speed. BUT then the primary throttle pulley didn't follow - instead leaving a gap beetween the two parts. And if I would turn the throttle grip "backwads" the idle did drop, but after I let go, it would return to at least 1500 RPM - regardless of the idle screw setting. The primary throttle was "hovering" all the time way above anything the idle screw could touch unless wound entirely in. To make this absolutely clear. When the engine should have had normal idle and the throttle plates should have been at the position set by the idle speed screw - there was a big gap!!! And another gap in the other mechanism (that I interpreted as the fast idle control mechanism)...

So I just thought that I should ask "stateside" whether there might be some ideas...

Thanks, yours Ilari.

EDIT: corrected drunken typo's ...

* Last updated by: ilarik on 4/22/2013 @ 1:47 PM *

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On a sidenote...

I have to say to everyone huge thanks for the previous advice last spring!

Last summer was mostly a great success bikewise and not the least because of your advice - mean it really! Rode about 10000 km last summer too! Last time it was relatively simple things. I adjusted the idle speed to 1050 rpm and it felt much better, even the throttle response off idle and everything, first gear clunk reduced to normal. Later on during the summer I bought slipons (Leo Vince) - and even though the power gains were minimal - the bike transformed. It felt like it even idled more freely (idle speed rose like 300 rpm after the install, I adjusted the idle screw again) and of course the throttle response was better and felt more powerful down below in the RPMs. Weight reduction was about 8 kg (17.6 lbs) and it really was noticeable (the center of gravity changed also). And last but not the least, the exhaust heat was greatly reduced because of elimination of two catalytic converters, while still retaining a full european union street legal status! Me like.

The only setback was in August when the notorious automatic cam chain tensioner finally did let go and started a rattle. Not at cold start amazingly but at warm start instead. Horrible rattle (which I instantly interpreted as the cam chain because it stopped after I gave it some throttle - an engine knock would only had gotten worse with more RPMS...). Then I decided to have an APE manual tensioner installed after consulting a guy living near me with a ZZR1400 (your ZX14). He had the APE tensioner for like a few years and considered it to be good. Well he was right. No more rattle at startup. I had the install done by a very experienced Kawasaki mechanic (maybe the best in Finland). And he did it like in a few minutes :) We also dynoed the bike at the same time, it gave 162 bhp at the rear wheel, which the guy (who had dynoed apparently lots of them in his dyno) considered it to be the normal output they tend to give. He also measured the fuel/air mixture with a wideband lambda (for which he welded a plug in the exhaust himself to give an accurate measurement). The A/F readings were okay(ish) even without a Power Commander, apparently because of the huge catalytic converter still in the header. He did say that it would be much better when adjusted with a PC - as the mixtures were too rich for maximum power. Apparently there was still some more power to be gotten out of it with a PC, but I deciced to think over the winter for it...

So the point of this was that before this spring's setback the bike was in tip top condition. And I would like to keep it in that way. Maybe even considering a full system + Power Commander V + O2 Optimizer upgrade this summer... If I get it running at all

* Last updated by: ilarik on 4/22/2013 @ 2:14 PM *

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On my motorcycle during the high-idle warm up I can push the throttle closed and drop the engine speed so I am not surprised that you can do that and that it makes a difference. You are correct regarding how the high-idle system works (stepper motor) and there are really only 4 things in play here:
-The stepper motor (might be broken/seized)
-Return spring/plate movement (might be stuck)
-Temperature sensor (not sure if there's seperate sensors for the guage and ECU)
-ECU

I'd guess item's number 1 & 2, and both would require taking the throttle bodies out (not a hard job, but you gotta remove a LOT of stuff so it takes time), test the plate action on your work bench, clean it (use carb cleaner!) test again. If the stepper motor assembly is cheap, might as well just replace it then.

Don't forget, you CAN still ride the bike with the idle way up like that, back off the throttle before shifting into 1st and when you goto accelerate from a stop.

Looks like you have a first gen 1400. It may have an idle cable down on the left side [sit on the bike] so look down there for a cable and a knob at the end. Usually there is a plastic holder that clips onto both the idle cable and a rubber drain hose.

When your friend twisted the throttle the other way it should have showed you it does go down to an idle. So to me that says everything is OK, were are we if we turn the idle down to 1,100 rpm at the cable?

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Nightmare, thanks for the good ideas! I had a feeling too that something like that might just do the trick... But the thing is the bike is still on warranty because its a 2010 model sold 2011 and still has a few weeks warranty left. So I was wondering if I would do all that stuff myself (taking out the throttle body assembly and disassembling it) wouldn't that void the warranty on the throttle body assy? Also shouldn't a thing like this be a warranty claim?

Hub, I tried adjusting the idle speed cable the first thing. It didn't change a thing since it appeared that the idle speed screw didn't even touch the throttle until I really wound it in and then the idle went to even higher. The only thing I could do to lower the idle even temporarily was to turn the throttle grip backwards and hold it. And even then the idle seemed rough and as soon I had let go of the throttle grip the idle returned to it previous higher condition...

I just hope that this thing could be sorted out quickly and without having the bike sit for weeks at the dealership them trying to find out what's wrong...

Thanks for the input so far! All ideas appreciated!

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Hey, this is the net and not much info comes forward so it's more slow as you go. What you need to do is shoot the throttle linkage now when cold. That means you need to take the grill plate off. So your clue is, are we mechanical internally or externally?

The subs have zip to do with idle. The linkage, the idle cable, the shaft with the main plates has everything to do with idle. So say you have a shaft that is too far open where the center sync screw would bring them back to even, close the one plate(s) side of either 1-2 or 3-4 is who is cocked high?

That was internal. For external, see where the bellcrank has both cables at their positions? And then the arm that shows where the sub/choke/idle use that extended arm out from the circle of the bellcrank. Look there for a gap at that arm so as to see if there is, that shows how the reverse [push] cable can bring the idle back down. You know the [pull] direction is to open it, right? So you are going to watch how the reverse lands on the arm?

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... how the reverse lands on the arm' is the question... "Is there a gap under that arm to idle pin when your hand is off the throttle grip?"

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/23/2013 @ 11:23 AM *

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Anyone suggest 'free play'?That may be all it is.It's a 2010...probably's never had the free play adjusted.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 11:35 AM *

Lets assume, grn, the bike is on the side stand and oh look tension! Then, the OP stands the bike up, the bars are centered, oh look less tension is no change. Make sense is the walk is where is that seat?

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2010 and now 2 or 3 years of cable stretch she goes tight? Ahhhhh, I found it. Here, let me pull this nice cushy pillow on here and now try it. How's it feel now?

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Save it Hub...it's 3 years old...it could be as simple as cleaning the mechanism...or lubing the cables.I'm not discounting what you suggest...but why not start out at the simplist possiblity and go from there?Is that so terrible?

"Lets assume, grn, the bike is on the side stand and oh look tension!"...exactly...he did say 'traditional cleaning' or something.Just HOW did he clean that cable area(if he did)LAST year....before it sat for however long.Wash those cable ends up there at the car wash?Maybe spray everything all nice with a car wash sprayer....drip dry maybe?Who knows?

"Hey, this is the net and not much info comes forward"...since when?Read people's impressions of this site....FULL of useful info.LOTS of happy owners here.

I had the same issue on my 07....FWIW.I changed out the cables thinking that was it.It wasn't.It needed to be cleaned at the rocker...and free play adjusted...along with the idle speed screw...it did exactly what he's saying his did.Once I got everything cleaned up...the idle speed screw worked again just fine.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 11:55 AM *

The key here is...he closed the throttle manually and the the idle DROPPED...which tells me...it's in the cable adjustment...probably the return idle adjustment...too loose.OR the open throttle adjustment is too tight...or both.

"KoflaOlivieri

Location:
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Joined: 02/17/12
Posts: 756
RE: ZX14 manual and fiche - full parts PDF
04/28/12 8:38 PM
This forum is a gold mine of information!

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog"

OP.1: "It felt like it even idled more freely (idle speed rose like 300 rpm after the install, I adjusted the idle screw again) and of course the throttle response was better and felt more powerful down below in the RPM"

Answer:"It 'may have' an idle cable down on the left side [sit on the bike] so look down there for a cable and a knob at the end. Usually there is a plastic holder that clips onto both the idle cable and a rubber drain hose".....pillow?Someone say..."pillow"? "May have"????

Gawd it's fun messin wit U Hubster... Carry on.....

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 12:50 PM *

Where's that Jixxer guy at(he seems to have quite an affection for you Hub)...the one who wheelied his bike in KTRC 3 mode?...he sounds like he knows something about throttle adjustment Now he's got me wondering....will it?Will it wheely in KTRC 3?Hmmmm....soon....I'll find out soon. ....but first..... more

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 1:11 PM *

Grn, wait for the OP to answer cable tightness. I hope you're right and it's that simple. If not?

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Hey y'all!

Love you guys !!! Now some comments on your (excellent) suggestions, Grn14 and Hub.

Hub, you asked about the primary throttle mechamism landing on the idle screw. It doesn't - at least now! After the first testing I screwed the idle adjust screw backwards and forwards, so there's no telling anymore at what position the screw was when the trouble started - sorry about that. But the thing is, that at least now, I would have to wind the screw quite much in until it even touches the primary throttle and only then starts to raise the idle speed even more! So I can't lower the idle using the screw.

Grn14, you suggested throttle cable free play. I was wondering about that too, but if I "measured" it correctly, there was plenty. I looked at the throttle pulley (the fairings are off!) when turning the throttle forwards and backwards and there seems to be some slack in the cable. I also lifted the bottom end of the cable at the pulley side with my finger and it seemed as if both the cables had some slack - didn't feel tight at all. If the throttle slack would have been gone, wouldn't the cable have been absolutely tight, as the throttle grip would have had the throttle plates lifted all the time?

I didn't do any actual cleaning in the throttle body area. Just wiped some dust of the sides of the engine, but didn't get to clean the throttle linkage or the throttle body assy. Maybe I should had? It was very dusty and dirty after about 17500 km on the odo without any cleaning apparently (not me or any dealership at the services apparently...).

Grn14, you said you had a similiar problem on your 07? So did your idle also stuck at the high idle position until you did something to clean up the mechanism? Maybe this is the same problem? Could you tell some more?

Also I had a suggestion from a Finnish mechanic (the dyno place) that maybe I should check for air leaks at the intake. He said that even the smallest leak at some of the air hoses or plugs would raise the idle substantially !?! Maybe I accidentally hit some of the hoses or clips with a fairing or a tool while cleaning - sounds plausible right !?! Also this friend of mine who has a 06 model asked about the plugs in the throttle body assy used to block the ports meant for throttle body syncing - maybe some of those went loose !?! Have any of you had any vacuum leaks at the intake?

PS. Absolutely love you guys!

- ilari

* Last updated by: ilarik on 4/23/2013 @ 3:44 PM *

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We are open loop. Closed loop compensates for air leaks. For example, if say the leak was small enough at the 1 cylinder, it fired on 2-4-3, those would sense a lean is say #2. So 3 would go rich [for argument sake] is that time delay. By the time it hit's 1 [the leak] is getting rich is the fire off so it sort of keeps running.

If in open loop 1 will stay lean without the compensation of the 02 sensing lean and you should have hard starting, poor or no idle and especially without the cable tip hitting the bellcrank AND twisting the closed throttle to its max. Make sense?

You also have digital sensors that either fail immediately or not. If you see no codes present, removing battery on a digital computer is mute for this animal. It has so many counts upon start up, any code is cleared within seconds, meaning, there were no coded to begin with or else the dash would be blinking no matter with battery jacking the cables do.

And that too means that someone has no clue about the sub or tps sensors needing some movement. It codes if it was out of spec. It's not like a ZX12's antique TPSit Down Clown(s)!

That's something seatime would bring in with hispecialshoes... And anyonelse not catching the codes I've seen. Running up 3 pages-of-shit. I was just waiting for your obvious answer the jacknose should have covered in his pea brain but who am I to stop the id-olt.

So you can focus on the obvious. You'll have to remove the gas tank, remove both or one service door and see if 1-2 plate sits higher than 3-4 plate? You will harm nothing if you have key off, ratchet the subthrottle shaft open so as to notice one set of main plates leading the other set?

Looking at the sub/idle ratcheting may be too subtle to see where the mains would show daylight more than the other. I'm done guessing up to this answer.

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Hub, if I understood correctly you're saying the ECU runs in open loop mode at idle? I tried looking up the closed loop mode operation from the web, but I too do remember reading something like that it runs closed loop only in 4-5-6 gears or something like that with 0-30% TPS and 0-6000 RPM maybe? Of course in this case the gear selection being in neutral or first (tried that also), the ECU must be running in open loop mode.

But even if running in open loop mode, wouldn't the extra air from some leak be enough to raise the idle? Of course the mixture would get extra lean then...

There has been no FI Errors and I checked it from the ECU using the service manual procedure for popping of the codes to the display. It didn't give any. So maybe that implies that all the sensors are operating correctly - or at least producing signals in the correct range!

Will be doing some serious checking up next on the throttle body assy with my friend... Also will be doing some reading of the Kawasaki service manual beforehand...

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... but I too do remember reading something like that it runs closed loop only in 4-5-6 gears or something like that with 0-30% TPS and 0-6000 RPM maybe?

Lets say you are somewhat close on the 02 workings. Oh wait, you are closed loop! So yeah, maybe you do have an air leak?

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Looking at the plates in the chambers is a good idea...a bit of work to get those visible...but probably worth at least checking.Does it have it's secondaries in there?Probably...and there may be some gumming going on on that shaft...maybe.If it sat for a longish while...it could have some gumming.The fact that it drops in manual closing reveals(to me) the mechanism is probably okay.Otherwise...it wouldn't move to a more closed position...if it was somehow stuck or sticking.IDK IF the tps sensors actually do anything at idle,but you might want to unplug the two sensors on the right side there(grey and black),then reconnect again....just to see what it might do...it won't hurt anything...just be careful popping them apart and reconnecting.May just be a 'dirty' pin in one of those..maybe some condensation got in there?...IDK.Turn it on with the plugs unplugged(so it cycles through it's dial sweep and all)...shut off...then reconnect,and turn it on again.See what it does?Fire her up and let her warm up good....may be all she needs.Work the throttle after several minutes...see if she drops down on her own now.

Warning...DO NOT TURN THOSE PLUGS in any direction when unplugging or reconnecting.Straight in...straight out...that's all.

Simple question here...does your engine have the rubber mat still going across the top of the motor?And your cables are running on top of that over to the Bellcrank?That small metal 'keeper' at the cable ends there is connected correctly?It didn't come loose maybe?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 9:33 PM *

Grn, do you understand you are jeopardizing the throttle body parts? You have no clue about sensors or how they work, especially this bike. You are chasing the guy to bust shit off that should throw codes if a sensor hung up is shut your computer off for a year and go riding.

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ilark, when grn speaks, open your shop manual for the correct answers or man you will pay for a brand new throttle body that WAS perfect.

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Since your bike can cover an air leak with the 02, we want to first make moves that do not jeopardize removing too many parts off the bike chasing a possible air leak? So the safety part is to walk the bike outside away from structures. The next is a garden hose at the ready.

The bike is cold so there is no chance of the low flame kind of starting chemical has a chance to catch fire. We want it to evaporate so there is no oil present like WD-40 or some oil base spray. We want brake or contact cleaner. We want to start the bike cold, spray the intake ports at the throttle body first. So that is a quick spray at the back of the throttle body rubbers on the throttle body side. We spray and drag across the intake ports so that draw of air around say the top rubber side is the leaker.

We move forward of the boots and spray that area as we note a rise or fall in rpm? Then, down at the head before it gets too hot is where the rubbers bolt onto the head. So at those 2 areas times front and rear sides so there is some sort of rpm movement, we now eliminate an air leak.

The throttle plate has a strong return spring so that says the TPS is not hung up. The subs are hammered with the actuator and the air pulses so as to dislodge any Sub sensor hangup is someone hangup grn's phone or cable line.

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And grn it is not my fault you do not cover your bases and look stupid just so you can post some lame idea. Think your shit thru so I do not come after you. Better yet, sithe fuck down already.

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"Grn, do you understand you are jeopardizing the throttle body parts?"...and just HOW does reconnecting two plugs do ANY damage to his TPS?...did u read what I said?Apparently not...The shop guys will do the same thing...just to rule out any possible plug issues...you're the one posting about 'phantom codes' remember?Sensors not failing but saying they are by coding?That's very reassuring when trying to fix yer machine....

Ya doofus.Geez...read the answers before inserting blather will ya?If you know what's going on....tell him.All this tech talk stuff isn't for him...it's for you...you want him to go out and spray flammables on his throttlebodies...fine....maybe LAST resort.But not if it's something much simpler than that.I'm offering SIMPLE things to try along the way BEFORE he has to use his garden hose to put out his bike.Get it?

I didn't have to jump through ANY of this you're telling him to get my throttle to act okay.....okay?So you want him to 'follow' what YOU would do....geez...should he remove his ram ducts as well since he'll be in there anyway?Throw on some big azz filters...?Maybe remove some other stuff as well?Tear his brake light out and install some megyver deal?Replace those front lamps with a single....?Geez dude...give it a rest.

"And grn it is not my fault you do not cover your bases and look stupid"....you think saying 'check throttle free play" or...'gummed shafts' or making sure the lock clip is in there okay is a stupid idea?Apparently the techs at Kawasaki think it's important...regardless of what YOU think about my suggestions.You ever HAVE this issue with any of yours?I didn't think so...that's what you have going for you.I've had this issue.Testing for a vacuum leak would have produced...ZERO solution.Maybe it will will his...IDK...but at least he can try some easier deals than going through that if he doesn't need to.Flame on.

"Think your shit thru so I do not come after you". We already covered this....you can't win big boy.Not only that...you can't accept anyone elses ideas either...not my problem.....stick with yer hose and garden fix.....it SOUNDS real techhy anyway So he does what ya say...jumps through the hoops....the whole shebang....and finds....NOTHING leaking.All that for nuthin...when it was a $1.00 cable clip that he accidently popped loose and didn't see it.Snapped her back on there...voila!It wasn't doing this before....ONLY started since his last Hibernation...who knows what he moved or whatever at that time...and may not even have realized it.I think he actually said that,didn't he?

BTW....HE's the one who suggested an air leak....not you.He came up with that...not you.You're just monopolizing on his idea.Tryin to make it sound like it was YOUR answer.That's what I meant....'it's' for YOU,not him.Least you could say is "good idea...ever test a vacuum leak before?"....nope,not you.No way are you gonna give ANYONE props for ANYTHING here.

"The throttle plate has a strong return spring so that says the TPS is not hung up"....and I said..."he manually closed the throttle and the idle dropped..that tells me the mechanism is okay"....long as YOU suggest it...it's fine...if someone else suggests it....not okay....right?And I'm clueless....sheesh.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/23/2013 @ 10:40 PM *

you think saying 'check throttle free play"

Yes or no... Did the OP come back and explain to you there was freeplay? I figured that out why were you asking the obvious was the OP's answer. I assumed correct and you did not. That means you were not thinking this out.

or...'gummed shafts'

Yes or no, can you imagine how fuel is a detergent and moving liquid is a cleaner? And yes or no, do you see the throttle or sub shaft stalling as in does not keep up with either shaft is to throw a code? Did you put those 2 and 2 together? Say I walked that so well is you keep on doing your shit is shit up the Q&A with wasted steps you should have cleared. You are not even close with the diagnostic if I am pounding your clown suit you wear so well, yes or no?

or making sure the lock clip is in there okay is a stupid idea?

Yes or no? Did he need to remove those for any reason I just explained WATT would happen? You are not listening to turtle is the problem. This bike works in the abslowloot do you ruin threads you troll. Stick with aftermarket stuff you know.

Apparently the techs at Kawasaki think it's important...regardless of what YOU think about my suggestions.

You think they'd pay your ass for diagnostics you should have cleared on your first post is did I call it or not? Yes or no?

You ever HAVE this issue with any of yours?I didn't think so...that's what you have going for you.I've had this issue.Flame on.

You had this issue? You lie so much you are not credible in my eyes is your problem. I'd fire your ass you are on the net posting all day long. I'm retired and have the luxury of no one looking over my shoulder? Either that or you own the place and are not taking care of business.

You wasted so much company time show me your paycheck LOL

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/23/2013 @ 10:38 PM *

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