I recently changed wheels and with them, I changed the rear sprocket. I kept the old chain and front sprocket. The old chain and sprockets were on the bike for at least 10K miles and I only needed to tighten the chain one time. After switching to the new rear sprocket, I am making adjustments every 1000 miles. I just tightened th echain for the third time since the new wheels went on and it looks like it will need to be tightened again very soon.

Is this the reason they always say to change sprockets any time you change the drive chain?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/4/2013 @ 7:44 PM *

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I can only tell you how hub does things. Some of the things are using grease not lube from spray can. No matter the tire rotation, I marked the tooth to the sprocket and made sure those two returned to the same wear pattern. After 27.5k I did not see a high spot because of a kind of break-in setting I start out with (loose ass a goose).

I never did adjust the chain after that. Greased it like a pig at a county fair. I kept the 3 to 500 mile intervals up on it. I just now wiped the whole rear end down with paper towels is all. Nothing else. Cleans right up. Popped the chain guard off, turned it upside down and pushed the grease out of that trough.

I said, you know what? I'm going to just for thell of it: give a few bolt flats to it. Why? I'm thinking of so much slop is so much lift and shitty shifting inside. So if I have a chain adjusted perfectly, my thinking is that slack leach to the dog sniffing that hole and if we speed shift the shit out of it, I don't know? Seems like there is an improvement, because I can't shift for shit... Or is it the chain slack?

See how there is a lot of lube to maintain. Hardly any chain maintenance like you were having? That one setting you want to chase because that chain is not going to move that much, right? Then all of a sudden what happened? I think two things occurred.

One is the new sprocket. The roller could ride high up on the old sprocket. Now, the roller is being forced down with the new curve at the tooth. There was more give with the old. Now, a forced side vs. the loose side. So that kind of tugs at the rung. The new pulls the loose up against the old... Look at it static wise. As if you could hold the one chain and sprocket at one end, move the old or new sprocket back and forth against the rollers and you see one is loose, one is tight?

The second part is pattern change. The minute you move a link off a tooth and drop it onto another tooth = New pattern occurs. The chain if I sort of sat there and counted one day, it takes about 65 times before it dials back to the mark you made at the link and tooth. So that sort of starts and ends a pattern in my book.

My guess is the tooth acceleration due to occurrence of the one factor stated could be concluded as X.
My second guess is how the pattern is going to mess up the 3Ti'inns. The stretch is pin thinning is Y.
My signature keeps saying turtle soup is take a taste. It has none. As if no one listens to the turtle is Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Night nighty

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Some of the things are using grease not lube from spray can.

I have been switching betwen grease and wax. Same as in the past before the frequent adjustments were needed.

No matter the tire rotation, I marked the tooth to the sprocket and made sure those two returned to the same wear pattern.

I do that one too but obviously that was not the case on the last wheel removal since the whole wheel and sprocket changed to brand new.

One is the new sprocket. The roller could ride high up on the old sprocket. Now, the roller is being forced down with the new curve at the tooth.

Yes. Also, it occurred to me that the new aluminum sprocket may wearing against the old chain in an accelerated fashion because the two were not matched with he same wear from day one. That may be part of it. Initially, I had to LOOSEN the chain so it would fit the brand new sprocket which had no wear at all. I can see that the chain is now adjusted PAST the point where it was on the old sprocket...IOW, the new sprocket is now worn MORE than old one....or the chain is stretching.. I think the latter. I would see a change in teh shape of the teeth if the sprocket was wearing so much in just 2000 miles.

The second part is pattern change. The minute you move a link off a tooth and drop it onto another tooth = New pattern occurs. The chain if I sort of sat there and counted one day, it takes about 65 times before it dials back to the mark you made at the link and tooth. So that sort of starts and ends a pattern in my book.

I remeber the old discussions. I believe that you are correct. With a big sprocket and a small, the chain/tooth matchup changes every revolution but after so many revolutions, say 65, it is back to the first matches and all the next 65are the same as last time too. Whether you believe it or not, it makes no sense to not match the tooth the the link when you reinstall the wheel. How much time does it take to mark the chain and the sprocket with a Sharpie? 30 seconds at most.

My signature keeps saying turtle soup is take a taste. It has none. As if no one listens to the turtle is Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Night nighty

Always been listening, Hub.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/5/2013 @ 2:33 AM *

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ALso, the new wheel has a much stiffer cushdrive. I like the way it feels. Snappy. I can see how that might be harder on the chain but this EK ZZZ was supposed to be a super chain. It never stretches. ....until now.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/5/2013 @ 2:38 AM *

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Only thing I can think of Rook is 1) Alignment of both wheel and sprocket. 2) Any paint/crud/metal etc stopping the sprocket from seating/aligning properly on the wheel. Set something against the side of the sprocket and spin the wheel. See if there's any run-out on the sprocket, and maybe the wheel too. 3) Maybe the new rear sprocket teeth are just a touch tighter than the old chain rollers and haven't bedded down to the bottom of the sprocket teeth yet.
Maybe you're not really adjusting the chain as such, just making adjustments for the sprocket bedding in. If that makes any sense. Maybe just have to keep an eye on it until the sprocket beds in to the chain, then it might settle down.

* Last updated by: sweetfa65 on 8/5/2013 @ 7:15 PM *

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Placing an aluminum sprocket on a bike like this kind of power will tear up that guy right quick. Aluminum sprockets are racing throwaways: like changing oil. It's more a one time deal. The only advantage is weight. Durable? No. When playing with sprockets it's more you have a dedicated set. And you better have plenty of master links to squeeze back on.

Either that or be proficient at swing arm R&R'ing, us a low torque to the C/S sprocket threads and loc-tite some blue to it. I'd almost run a mix of graphite and grease so the graphite is in between the metals so the sheer is at the layer, or say it has to sheer thru two, the grease, then the graphite.

If I have my angle in the X to Y is Z sheer, take two paper cups, touch them together so both folds touch each other. This is X or where the top rung is at the beginning of the tooth. Hold the one cup, curl the other cup around until you think you have a 45° angle and stop. That is angle Y.

So from a 90 degree to a 45 degree angle, Z is the constant sheer of that pin contact at the roller. The most steep angle being the C/S sprocket. I'm going to use a welding rod, measure 323mm long (12.4 inches) or (14R model 319mm ~ 12.4 inches). At the 20 pin count, give or take a pin, I'm going to bungee cord the chain so the rung is tight. That means I am taking up the sheer that is ground off of each pin on its rotation.

Collecting these pins to remain taught says, I am at my limit (319mm) if I touch from center of pin to center of pin. Now, are you saying the factory grease is being squeeze out of the pin area and that is growth at the chain. Make sense there with a new chain?

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1) Alignment of both wheel and sprocket.

am using Gilles Tooling chain adjusters and the marks are more precise than OEM. Never did the string method of aligning wheels. MAybe I should. The rear axle nut is only torqued to 45 foot pounds / Carrazzeria spec for their larger bearings.

2) Any paint/crud/metal etc stopping the sprocket from seating/aligning properly on the wheel. Set something against the side of the sprocket and spin the wheel. See if there's any run-out on the sprocket, and maybe the wheel too.

I masked the area that adjoins the wheel so paint film would not affect runnout. I checked runnout with a dial gauge before painting the sprocket. Also checked wheel runnouts. All good.

3) Maybe the new rear sprocket teeth are just a touch tighter than the old chain rollers and haven't bedded down to the bottom of the sprocket teeth yet.

Maybe. Hope so. Ddfinitely was the case at first because I'm sure the paint caused extra tightness that quickly wore away.

Maybe you're not really adjusting the chain as such, just making adjustments for the sprocket bedding in.

I could measure the chain stretch across 21pins (or whatever # pins it is). If that increases over time, the chain is stretching.

Placing an aluminum sprocket on a bike like this kind of power will tear up that guy right quick.

Makes sense HUb but the Vortex I had on there lasted about 20k miles and I never had to adjust but one time with it.

Thanks for ideas. I'll keep my eye on it and do some measuring.

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Today I went out with a well greased chain, clean wheel, swing arm, chain guard. I also made a chain adjustment just to answer my own question? I turned the adjust screws 2-flats, tightened the axle, snugged the nuts, split a cotter like a V thru the axle/nut.

Ask me how huge did that change the shifting? And all this time I knew it would. Why do I procrastinate and know that took a lot of what I might give the wording for a better term is, 'slipper lash?'

Yeah, that took a lot of shiftime to lash up and 'slipper slap.' So call it slipper slap as you work that clutch the same way but wow, WOT a difference a shift makes. It's that smooth in that section, let alone FO mode.

So look at what is happening. I tore up 4th gear on the '08, knowing I had a too loose a chain, did nothing about it. This bike is going to find that sweet spot and it might be here? Do I try getting it closer to factory spec? Lose more slip-slap?

The deal here is, Rook, do I park my aluminum toothed bike, use it for trackday only, salvage sprocket time, forget any extra wear time is the street time. Or do I return back to steel for both street and track? Right now, me knowing how critical a shift is, to WOT a miss is, to what a slap is beginning to tell me to do, and you are losing limp or creating the limp at the chain. That is the last thing we want.

Make sense I come back within hours knowing the difference between slapping myself for a too lose chain, have the clutch basket tell me that along with 4th gear? I passed a few semi's in tandem. I got a run up on them so I know I had it in 2nd gear. I think I lifted [off the gas] in 4th once I passed them. Before the chain adjust, I think I tagged 5th [dog slapping is missed that gear] once with this R, because of that chain being that loose.

Today? A different animal.

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...but the Vortex I had on there lasted about 20k miles and I never had to adjust but one time with it.

I'm going to assume this sprocket went on with a new chain to a fairly new chain? For the sprocket to last 20k it sure sounds like it. Now, with that same chain [right?] is what we are talking about, we have a new sprocket mating to it and it's taking the [same] chain [in question] some time to settle out?

So the question is... We talking about the old vortex chain being reused and here we are?

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Is this the reason they always say to change sprockets any time you change the drive chain?

Are we on the same page yet? I love ya Rook! Still a rookie!

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I'm going to assume this sprocket [the old one, Vortex] went on with a new chain to a fairly new chain? For the sprocket to last 20k it sure sounds like it. Now, with that same chain [right?] is what we are talking about, we have a new sprocket mating to it and it's taking the [same] chain [in question] some time to settle out?

Yep, the Vortex of old went on with this very chain I have right now. The vortex is showing visual signs of ware I think, I see a backward and a forward notch starting on the side of every tooth ...like a pull mark from acceleration and decels, inside the teeth front surface and the back. The Vortex still could be in service. All was going fine with it installed.

I think it may be just the two parts, old chain new sprocket wearing in together but this chain was so tough compared to the OEM one. I swear I never adjusted this chain eccept for one time in 20000 miles! The old chain ws getting adjusted at least every couple thousand or so.

Are we on the same page yet? I love ya Rook! Still a rookie!

....albeit a more knowledgable one. thanks to you and the others.

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Hey Rook, it sounded like you are very happy with your newer chain. I was thinking of changing mine from the factory chain some time soon. What type is yours? What type is THE BEST that you've heard?

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@Hub: IDK what it is about the R but when puppies are sniffing for holes they almost demand that 1.0 - 1.2" measured at "A". Seems really tight for a chain but the little beasties love it.

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I was thinking of changing mine from the factory chain some time soon. What type is yours? What type is THE BEST that you've heard?

EK is the name of the maker. The chain is the EK ZZZ 530 pitch. I think the 120 pin length will work for stock gearing.

CHAIN AND SPROCKET INSTALL

I researched the cr^p out of this and the EK ZZZ was the one most often recommended. I think dragking posted some info about the new updated ZZZ but we determined it was a bit heavier than the old one. The old one has side plateds with lightening holes. Takes off a couple ounces.

Lots of people like DID too. I'd be curious to try one someday. Could not find anyone who actually weighed a DID but they were claiming to be superior for lightweight. All I know is I weighed my EK and compared it to the stock chain and they weighed very close to the same. I have an extra link on my EK and it was freshly packed with lithium grease so I am estimating the weight to be same as OEM. Much stronger though. Never needed adjustment until now that I tossed the brand new sprocket in with it. The rollers all spin when I clean the chain with kerosene. There are no kinks. Orings all intact. Chrome finish looks like brand new. Only convcern I ever had with it, it DOES get rust spots more readily than the OEM. I do all I can to not let it sit wet after a bath. Its just light rust stains and they go away as soon as I clean and lube.

when puppies are sniffing for holes they almost demand that 1.0 - 1.2" measured at "A". Seems really tight for a chain but the little beasties love it.

If I take your meaning, you are saying that the 14r spec for chain slack is just 1"-1.2"? That IS tight. I'd like to go that tight with mine. Yes it has a nice responsive feel but I would worry about stretching the chain. I know that has happened to me in the past. Adjust a chain too tight and it will stretch itself to the proper slack in no time. Could be hard in the countershaft bearings and sprockets too. I adjust sorta loose now....even for track because even witha smooth surface, you have an awful lot of frame pitching going on with braking and hard acceleration.

I adjust sorta loose now.

...and when I pull the chain to measure the slack, I don't try to stretch it at all. I could pull at least an extra half inch if I want but i adjust loose. If it is too loose, like about 1.75" ~ 2", it will make a slapping noise and miss a shift every now and then. Tha is too loose.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/7/2013 @ 9:17 PM *

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According to my shop manual and the decal on the swingarm. It feels unnatural but...

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Hey, if it says it right on the bike....I'd do it. Tighter is nicer as long as it isn't going bust anything (TWSS).

now my 08 busa has a bit tighter spec than the 08 ZX-14. The busa is .8" ~ 1.2" I definitely don't got less than one and a quarter.

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Thanks for the chain info Rook.
I might be a little off here because I remember reading on one of your posts about chain slack when adjusting on a race stand. I do almost all maintenance on the stands. I've always gone about 32 - 35mm (1.25 - 1.5") (on the race stand) of slack on mine almost without ever needing adjustment in 27,000 kms of mostly normal riding. I only ever adjusted by one flat on the bolt, maybe twice on my 07 on the stock chain. Maybe cleaned the chain once per year, and lubed with Maxima Chain Wax every tank or two, and it didn't see a lot of wet riding.
I can see why you'd get edgy though if you've had over-tight problems before.
I'm not suggesting for a second that I could teach you how to suck eggs. Just adding my experiences to either confirm or add to any thoughts you might have.
I still reckon from what you said about the wearing pattern on the sprocket teeth, that it's just finding its groove.
Keep your eye on it for a while and enjoy.

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Tighter is nicer as long as it isn't going bust anything (TWSS).

Lol... took me a minute that abbreviation.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 8/7/2013 @ 10:09 PM *

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1.0 ~ 1.2" = Gen 1 bikes
1.3 ~ 1.5" - Gen R bikes

Did they lengthen the R's swing arm?
When the swing bottoms out, the chain tightens. So the trick is to remove the rear shock, measure full travel, hold the swing arm there, run minimum clearance @ 1.0" and call it a day.

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Did they lengthen the R's swing arm?

Yeh Hub.... I believe they lengthened the R's swing by 10mm, plus 1 tooth up on the rear sprocket. So effectively, a 20mm longer chain. I haven't even had the R long enough to check mine yet.

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"I believe they lengthened the R's swing by 10mm, plus 1 tooth up on the rear sprocket"...correct..

I might be a little off here because I remember reading on one of your posts about chain slack when adjusting on a race stand. I do almost all maintenance on the stands.

yes I have suggested the use if a rear stand to adjust the slack. Having just adjusted mine, I can tell you that using a rear stand will change the slack by about 1/4 inch from what it will be with both wheels on the floor. I don't recall if the measurement increases or decreases using the rear stand. I believe it increased it on the stand.

I only ever adjusted by one flat on the bolt

That sounds about right, 1/6 of a turn. It blows my mind how much the tension picks up with such a minute adjustment. My chain has been very loose and I turned the adjuster bolts 1/4 of a turn.

"I believe they lengthened the R's swing by 10mm, plus 1 tooth up on the rear sprocket"...correct..

that thing is damn BEAST!

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Hey Rook, Just thought I'd fill you in. I just got back from a ride and checked my chain for the first time after 300 kms. I checked it on the side stand and then on the race stand. Both came up the same for me, about 40 mm of slack from the shop.
I adjusted it by 2 bolt flats which brought it just into spec, about 30 mm.
Just a tip..... what I do is mark one of the adjuster bolt flats, I paint one flat on each side. That helps me when you aren't quite sure if you've moved it one or two flats sometimes, or if you actually did BOTH sides. Another thing I find is when I adjust it, it's about right when I can lift the bottom of the chain and it goes tight just as it contacts the underside of the chain guide. If it hits the guide without going tight, I know it's a bit loose. Just to be sure about the alignment, I also checked the gap between the adjuster bolt and the lock nut with an internal vernier caliper. I find that's much more accurate than using the marks on the swing arm and slide plate.
I hope this gives you a idea or two that are useful to you, or anyone else.

* Last updated by: sweetfa65 on 8/10/2013 @ 2:01 AM *

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