You guys don't suppose that keeping that factory oil in there for 600 miles actually acts as a polisher at some point with those micro metal pieces flowing around in there do ya?Everyone seems to think 'that's way too long for 'new oil' to be unchanged'.I'm not so sure.600 miles in a new engine isn't very long really.Just wonderin...

I'm installing the goldpug in mine,then run for 600 miles...and see what kind of bits are actually moving around in there if I can.I do know that Motul 3000 dino is very good oil.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/29/2012 @ 7:42 PM *

I should've saved some of what came out of mine at 600 miles... looked like super fine brass powder suspended in the oil. I could've looked at it under the scope.

Only a small %age of the solids in a 600-mile oil change will be ferric-mostly aluminum but I think the biggest concern would be clogging the filter medium and making it go on bypass, letting all that crap circulate instead of taking it out of the system.

I had uploaded a picture earlier this year of what I filtered from my initial oil drain at 400 miles. There's quite a bit of heavy particulate in the fluid. I have no idea how to retrieve those pictures though.

" super fine brass powder suspended in the oil"...yeah...that's what I was talkin about....maybe that's a good thing in there?IDK.....kinda like honing a knife edge or something?I don't mean leaving it in there of course...but up to their 600 mile mark???????You gotta think(maybe)..WHY would they wait for a 600 mile limit...when we all know there's stuff floating around in there.They know that.We know that.Just a thought that's all.Mine looked damn clean at 180 miles when I changed mine out on my 14R.180 isn't much I know....but still.It definitely could have gone a lot further I'm thinkin.There weren't any chunks or odd pieces in there either.

I'll say...I might change it halfway....at 300 miles...IDK yet....just interesting them saying 600 miles...I mean...why not....400 miles?You know?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/30/2012 @ 8:55 AM *

Just speculating on the 600-mile mark, but perhaps changing earlier may still not get all the impurities out of the system, but after that possibly they are few and far between? Sort of, even if you change at 300, you'd still need to change again at 600 to clear everything out. There had to be some testing at the factory to come up with 600 as an optimum figure.

Ya....so many 'scare stories' and wishful thinking all over the place...makes ya wonder sometimes.Probably(for the first time ever)I'll wait until 600 miles.Then go for it;)600 miles goes by awfully quick anyway!One day's ride really.Thanks Danno for the observation there

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/30/2012 @ 11:13 AM *

"There had to be some testing at the factory to come up with 600 as an optimum figure."

I couldn't agree more.

Hey Montana, you know what you could do? Collect a sample at 600 miles and send it to the lab. I think a bunch of us would really be interested in those results. I'll chip in if you want.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 12/30/2012 @ 12:55 PM *

I might do that...but not sure what you'd be looking for?

They could probably identify what's in suspension. Also what grade of oil and its condition and perhaps any additives.

I think it's just plain old Motul 3000 Dino.Looked just like the oil I replaced it with...same color...consistency....smell....IDK.Apparently Kawasaki doesn't see any issue with running to 600 miles on original oil....I'd have to say that if anything,they'd be leaning towards a really conservative number...Probably could go a lot longer without any prob.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/31/2012 @ 9:32 PM *

You know...now that you mention this....I wonder WHY no one has ever sent their break-in oil to be analyzed?Would certainly lay to rest the opinion that it's some sort of 'special' break-in oil....ya know?Personally...I don't think it's any different than the shelf oil from Kawasaki.The new models starting at 2012 can be filled with full syn straight from the crate(well...at the first '600' mile service)....that used to be a no no,right?

"three dino oil changes...and THEN full syn"...that's what I always was told.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/31/2012 @ 9:46 PM *

That, young man, is precisely why I am asking you to send a sample. Had I been aware of all these questions I would be doing it. There's >12000 on mine... its too late.

I'll pay. Just give us a sample so the "???" can be addressed.

;)

Sampling the initial fill of any engine is a practical waste of money. Used oil analysis is done to develop a baseline for engine performance. It is referred to as "trending" with the idea of learning the wear signature of each individual engine (or component). No two engines wear in identical manners.

The initial fill of any engine will show excessive amounts of both wear metals and fluid additives simply because of wear-in of the components and assembly techniques used by the manufacturer.

Oils are composed of multifunctional additives in which most are not detectable on a inexpensive spectrographic oil analysis. Spectrographic Oil Analysis Programs (SOAP's) are used in industrial settings for simple trending and early detection of failing components. Particles greater than approximately 10µ are rarely detected. The human eye detects particles down to approximately 40µ so when you see chunks of sealer and brass in your oil drain pan know that these would have never been detected by a UOA in the first place.

It doesn't make sense to take a oil sample until you've accumulated at least some wear on the engine. Initial fill oils will show excessive silicones and molybdenum components not generally found in the oils. These are present due to the assembly using sealers and assembly pastes that will wash out with successive fluid flushes. I suspect that the only benefit of doing a early analysis would be to see if there's any unusual amount of coolant or excessive fuel in the oil (excessive fuel is common in motorcycles). Again, it is best to wait until complete break-in has taken place. Otherwise the data shouldn't be used for baseline trending due excessively high numbers skewing the averages.

I would agree with all that. Plus, at 600 miles, the oil isn't going to show any detectable viscosity breakdown, which is the second reason for oil testing; to determine how well a specific oil holds it's viscosity in real service. If you send in a sample that shows a 10-point drop in viscosity, you know you either need to change sooner or upgrade to a higher-quality oil, possibly a full ester synthetic. Particulates in drain oil aren't a big problem because the filter is designed to catch the big ones, but viscosity loss is more critical

* Last updated by: Danno on 1/1/2013 @ 7:30 AM *

Actually, most fluids will show measureable viscosity loss at very low mileage. For automotive standards, it is customary for a fluid to be designed to shear in initial viscosity grade for the sole purpose of passing the fuel economy requirements of standards such as the ILSAC GF-5 and API SM norms. Note that the HT/HS viscosities (dynamically measured at 150ºC) tend to hold their rating while the kinematic measurement at 100ºC shears measureably. This is by design.

Regarding the JASO standards for motorcycles, the ASTM D6278 standard for viscosity shear is specified using a very short duration test of only 30 cycles through the Bosch diesel fuel injector. The oil has to maintain a kinematic viscosity of only 12 cSt's after the 30 cycles. Note that this is a drop in viscosity grade for a XW-40 down to a XW-30 oil. Laboratory viscosity tests of Valvoline's mineral based motorcycle oil (10W-40) show it to drop down to exactly 12Cst's after precisely 30 cycles on the injector test. At 40 cycles it's sheared down to approximately 10.5 cSt. Again, Valvoline produced this product to simply pass the test and not to excel. I use Valvoline as my example because that's the one product that I have the numbers for off the top of my head and not to shine any negative light on Ashland Chemical.

In my personal experience, I have never seen a XW-40 motorcycle oil stay in grade for any measureable duration. This doesn't mean that it won't protect the engine. It just means that the used fluid isn't the same viscosity that the new fluid is.

Well...I recon that's a good enough explanation for me....no Blackstone shipment here!;)

Sigh.

I have SEM and ICP at my disposal. I want to identify what is in suspension to such a great degree that the oil looks like glitter at 600 miles. He had it in his green bike, I had it in my blue bike. But thats all been torpedoed now hasn't it?

I'll find one somewhere else.

C'mon Hagrid...don't be pissed....Fovway and Danno are on it....I'm cool with what they say....there's nothing weird or odd or whatever in the Kawa oil at 600...just metal flakes and stuff.No biggie.Normal break-in stuff in the motor...that's all.I'm sure the shear quality and viscosity and all are virtually like new at 600 miles.

There's certainly no harm is taking a sample.. go ahead and do it. I'd love to see what shows up in your sample too.

Well...maybe....we'll see.

The 'glitter' in the break-in oil fill is no big deal IMO. If these particles are small enough to pass through the filter then they are of no threat to the engine but, if they still worry you, just fit a decent magnet to the filter and it'll trap them. If you do this, then open up your first filter, you'll see all these particles in suspension clinging to the magnetic side of the filter. JMO

^^^ I'm not worried either bud. I'm just insatiably curious.

"I'm just insatiably curious"....not only that..but your spelling is excellent!;)Getting ANY riding in?I hope so.....

^^^ just inside the garage. I'm socked in with that white stuff.