I see that a PCV Auto Tuner will run you something like $250 or less. A dyno tune will run something like $350. Not to mention that the auto tune is a one time investment in case you're changing things around.

Why would anyone get a dyno tune when they could get the auto tune?

I think it is because a lot of people don't have the skills or just want to "set it and forget it". I'm not sure but I believe a custom tune made by a reputable tuner is better than auto tune!

Autotune will allow you to make multiple maps. Also allows you to compensate for the ram air effect at speed no dyno will do that. You can have a map according to each gear. No dyno operator I've encountered will do that unless you pay handsomely. Change something on your bike performance wise make yourself another map. Will also adjust actively while riding,will compensate automatically. It will pay for itself many times over. Or you can make your map and sell it get $150 of your $250 back!! Have it installed on my 09R6, and 08 ZX14.

100%, a custom tune will get the most power out of your bike. The autotune will only adjust your AF.

I have made hundreds of maps and really Enjoy having the ability to use auto tune when needed. I could never have kept pistons in turbo bike with out it. Great feature. Cheers.

+1 Romans. Some people have a good use for it. Most don't.

Watchow simple the concept is. I am going to make a map.

Lower Right Cube: I am going to run in open loop. I am first stage [H-D] VOES. I am limited in development. I am slow in my 1's and 0's. I have a shallow trunk space to save data.

Lower Left Cube: I am climbing to a faster clock speed. I still have to travel from one of my same color-time to find-same color; I am at a certain X to Y I follow here.

Upper Left Cube: I am in a 3-Dimentional stage. I am more or less a smoother map. I am in closed loop. I read more samples; I need more bit space; I grow from 32 to 64 bit by bit. The samples will X to Y at a faster speed. Speed says smoother input. See my evolution in speed data. Better things yet to come in that black box. The gov is watching! 1984 is what year is it? Everyearepeatsame year.

I am about to make map. I have so many ping grids to play with. I am a safety valve grid too. Since this is the abstract to the concept, I am going to use red as (+) and yellow as (-).

Here is where you are locked out making map in a certain way. There are two math boxes on the motherboard. One checks your move, you tumble a block a different way. The other box sends the data to the ECU. The ECU throws it out in limp mode. This is considered a 'method' used as in the generic.

Having those switch boxes checking what program was written by the factory programmers who know all that C/C+/C++ key word keystrokes to make FI function, you are locked out as the plus and minus default your map guessing.

In other words, you change an X and a Y in that upper left 3-D kind of map, you are moving all those internal blocks too you make one move. You hit 'save,' you just might have a lot of plus/minus defaults pinged to counter your move. Too much percentage change, it stumbles all the way thru that cube.

Say if you read a stock map? It would look something like this:

1-0-1-0-1-0-1-1-0-1-0-1.

If you changed a grid or a selection of a large drag and save that section of grids, it would look something like this all up and down the rpm range:

1-0-+-1-+-0---1-+-0---1

That is more a cry for a map on line. Someone does not recognize they broke out of the programming. That (+/-) is a blow off valve that limped your ass.

And if you cannot see how simple in concept that is, it walks too well. It speaks volumes of a map grid. It speaks time to millisecond over and thru that mapped cube. It speaks X is the rpm. Y is the throttle opening. Z is the square lined up in a 3-dimentional block of programming.

So, the story goes, you stay out of the red/yellow, you can richen it up (yellow-shuts you down), whereas red (richens your lean move).

_________________________________________________________

IAP ~ This is basic FI timing. The intake air pull is that throttle cable yank.
Crank P ~ This too is basic FI timing. ECU needs to know crank position.
TPS ~ This is all you need for basic FI timing. Where the cable rests?

Call this the injector duty cycle. Like an elevator, that air suck is going to X some Y is my understanding. The 3 fundamentals above are considered in some abstracts, 'Ultimate FI.' Using the same abstract, various sensors are your, 'Compensator' sensors.

We dunt need know stink'inn compensators! Those are for "Linears." Data is watt I call the Joe-A's. You more or less are the Joe Average with the VOES plugged in.

However, the Catch22 in all this, is it limps you once you pull the IAP off. It eliminates a compensator map, or the only sensor on the bike i.e.; VOES. So, obviously, it runs in linear[on] or runs in limp mapping [off].

That twitch of the limp is that faster ignition curve, remember. The linear curve is missing, meaning. The ride or throttle apply is more abrupt. Robust. Twitchy. Snappy. In traffic, wear Depends. I pee fur Poise.
_______________________________________________________

Programming a map these days will take a lot of R&D. Every pipe is more or less a snowflake. They may say, 'use this map with this pipe' and you come back [all crying on the net] with your slightly different setup/parts changing going on.

Come on... Stand on the carpet. Who needed a different map?

If you do not have your AFR in order, you are probably smelling odor. And there is your rich stumble and all that guess work someone else did. Now you are stick with it.

+1 Romans. Some people have a good use for it. Most don't.

For me priv it was almost a must have. The kicker with Auto Tune that most people are not aware of is, you don't just turn the switch on and the world is Good,(as we have been lead to believe). Knowing how to use Auto Tune properly is the key. I would take a Brock Map Any Day over a home made map, the reasons would take pages to write and I'm all thumbs with typing, but believe me there is more to it. There should be more written on the subject. Not Fair,, booooo lol
In my case I'm constantly making changes in search of the Holy Grail. With out Auto Tune I would have had more Dyno Time than seat time and at 300 $$$$$$$$$$ a crack who can afford. I Love it and am a big fan. Saved me thousands.

So, the story goes, you stay out of the red/yellow, you can richen it up (yellow-shuts you down), whereas red (richens your lean move).

That was a tough one Hub but I got it lol

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/20/2012 @ 6:38 AM *

Stick with it; you'll see the tuning concept. I play with the same 3 variables when I wake up... Dis is my abyss ... Someone

+1 Romans. Some people have a good use for it. Most don't.

I guess I was one of the set it and forget it guys. LOL I was pretty happy for a month to just have another blinking LED doodad under my seat LOL. Then one day I decided to actually try it. Hooked it up accepted the trims that were determined over the past 30some days and VOILA!! Very nice change that made the bike safer, improved performance and more fun. Turns out that that is exactly how you should use a dj self tuning device. The longer you wait to accept the trims, the more accurate they will be. The suggested trims are perfected over time so the longer you wait to accept them, the more accurate they will be.

Always save your old map just in case you want to reload it. If you work with a dj tech in an interactive session, tell him that you DO NOT want to discard your old map. I highly recommend the interactive sessions. Be patient with the guy because you might get the one that is a little ornery. He really knows his stuff though. Just have to be deferential with him. You need to have a PC BTW, DJ no likey maccy.

Also, talk to a DJ customer service tech about what DJ products work together. They are not all compatible. Find out what you want and get the stuff that works together.

Finally, ask DogoZX-14 why he likes Wideband 2 better. It is a similar product by DJ. Almost the same actually but Dogo has done the legwork on this and he maintains WB2 is better. Actually sold his brand new AT-200.

I hear the o2 sensor burns out after some time and needs to be replaced if you want to continue to use.

I am a set it and forget it type of guy also.... Do all my mods & get it tuned... then leave it alone.

I am a set it and forget it type of guy also.... Do all my mods & get it tuned... then leave it alone.

Seno, that sounds so nice and peace full.

Finally, ask DogoZX-14 why he likes Wideband 2 better. It is a similar product by DJ. Almost the same actually but Dogo has done the legwork on this and he maintains WB2 is better. Actually sold his brand new AT-200.

I too went this route. see pic.

Stick with it; you'll see the tuning concept. I play with the same 3 variables when I wake up... Dis is my abyss

Always searching. Once hook sets in no turning back. It will consume every waking second of thought,,,, Run Away

Finally, ask DogoZX-14 why he likes Wideband 2 better. It is a similar product by DJ. Almost the same actually but Dogo has done the legwork on this and he maintains WB2 is better. Actually sold his brand new AT-200.

I too went this route. see pic.

Ya, so what does the WB2 do that the AT does not?

Romans, there has to be something else you can install under that seat!

so what does the WB2 do that the AT does not?

Rook there was a few reasons a couple of years ago but can't really remember. At the time I needed Auto Tune with a AFR gauge and that was not possible with just auto tune. I did not want two 02 sensors in pipe. shown in pic below. Wide Band 2 has more out puts from one unit. Same thing with more features ?

Romans, there has to be something else you can install under that seat!

Tool kit might be nice,,,,,

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/22/2012 @ 4:06 AM *

At the time I needed Auto Tune with a AFR gauge and that was not possible with just auto tune.

My DJ LCD has AFR gauge and it works with my AT-200 and the PC5. The LCD ports into the PC5. There is 1 free ort in the AT. I have not messed with any of this stuff in so long that I can't rember what half of it was supposed to do. LOL Just something to throw a map in was all I needed but it will be fun to mess with all that junk some day.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/22/2012 @ 7:53 PM *

You can have those two that close. They are in sealed tube, basically. It's like saying, there are two floating in the tube, will both die, they are fed straight water? I think the effect is the same if it was gas sniffing. You'll still get a correct sample.

1- Wire 02 = Narrow band. Slow sample rate. The (1-wire to the ECU) from 02 body, has to warm up first by the hot gases.
4- Wire 02 = Wide band. Why? Faster samples. The (ground-1) (white-2 for the internal heater) (black-1 to the ECU) wires can warm up the 02. Sort of a high performance amplifier we add a 5-wire kind of; the more wires, the faster the evolution rate or bit speeds.

The 02 up front at the header is A rate. The 02 past the cat muffler or farther down the pipe is sample rate B. The calc is averaged, no? Extra-extra smoothing.

Correct, Hub. O2 sensors have to be widely seperated in order to do valid averaging.

But putting one in the header is not a great idea, because the O2 sensors we use are "slow" and cannot operate properly in the realm of gas pulses / shocks. Which is exactly the condition in the upper header. And still a problem at the entrance to the collector.

Brock brought this to my attention during a discussion about why the bung on his CT series exhausts is where it is.

Its been 30 years since I used thermodynamics and fluid dynamics, so he could have told me anything and I'd have believed him. But Brock also gave me good information so....

A good two-sensor setup on CT-Duals would be a foot "behind" (to the rear) of the back pipes where they come from the collector, on each side.

A good two-sensor setup on CT-Duals would be a foot "behind" (to the rear) of the back pipes where they come from the collector, on each side.

Yes, but what if your pipe is only 9 inches long.(we should all be so lucky rofl)

Correct, Hub. O2 sensors have to be widely seperated in order to do valid averaging.

In case above no averaging taking place. One goes to Auto Tune the other to a wide band commander.

Hey guys, brought this over from the turbo thread as it Relates. May Help some of you decide. Cheers

said not to use auto-tune on a turbo bike...its a big no-no? I just assumed trying to use an auto-tune to tune something as fast changing as afr's on a turbo bike would be trouble, so I never even considered it.

Here is my thoughts on this, people believe Auto Tune is plug and play and it most certainly is not. That's where the trouble comes in. From all accounts if jlewis can get my AFR table to Repair his map then the map becomes his own made by him, at his sea level, for his set up, on his bike. What could be better ?

Ok, next the 02 sensor,,,, is it different than the ones on the Dyno ? Software from the Dyno's computer, is it different ?

So, now comes down to the tuner or user with little or no experience with his new toys. Danger zone. From what I can see 4 sure is the RPM climbs to fast for the Bosch sensor to see the readings it's looking for. This becomes clear in the recommended trim values. It's Blind. ZERO is Blind.

On the Dyno, the operator goes to 4th gear and holds it to wide open throttle. This slows down the RPM climbing rate & allows the 02 sensor to get good readings as he performs multiple runs to confirm the different throttle positions.

OK, in comes Auto -Tune, what we do on the street is gas on gas off at all TPS positions. Then go in and except Trims,,,,Now your Map is Junk. Look yourself at the green TPS highlighted block in the software as it moves across the board,,,, Mapping like this will give bad results.

If you go to wide open throttle then to 80% 60 % 40 % to all TPS positions in a taller gear this will slow down your RPM climb rate and you can open the Eyes of the sensor.

But if you touch the throttle just once on the RPM wind down the readings you have just made will be changed and all you have just made is lost. Make sense ? I have hundreds of tests to prove.

So who goes from wide open to zero ????? No One, so the maps made are crap. IMO, I would take a Dyno proven map any day. But if you use Auto Tune exactly as a Dyno Operator does, Results are Nice. Proof = My AFR Gauge matches my Auto Tune trim #'s. I have found a way to make it work, this means anyone can,,,, baby steps think and study.

This is how I'm doing it. Please add to thread if anyone has more to offer. I'm only trying to help, no flaming please lol.

Romans thanks for the explanation on the auto-tune...makes perfect sense

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/26/2012 @ 7:37 PM *

So who goes from wide open to zero ?????

The real question is who goes to 100% throttle in 4th gear and waits until the rpm climb stops? You're doing about 140 at least. Then you do that cutting throttle 20% for 5 runs? Better find someplace you are very sure is deserted.

That is not a big deal.

Rook you just need to follow your cell tracer to see that it is a big deal. Unless it just does not need to be perfect, then all trims are ok. Study you will C.

The real question is who goes to 100% throttle in 4th gear and waits until the rpm climb stops?

Yep 100%,,, next run 80% then 60% and so on untill all cells see trims.

You're doing about 140 at least.

Depends on your gearing, but Yes

Better find someplace you are very sure is deserted.

Correct,,,, if you want a good map for your bike at your elevation on that day it's all up to U. Or,,, Brock ?

If Brock, why buy Auto Tune. This is just info for all 2 take lightly.

This is how I do It. If any one has more to add all info has value. Cheers

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/26/2012 @ 8:11 PM *

heh, nope. when i am really ready to figure this out, I'm coming to you, brother.

when i am really ready to figure this out, I'm coming to you, brother.

No problem Rook, any time. This info above took me Months to learn but only took a minute to type lol. If this thread Helps one other member through the BS then my goal has been achieved. I just wish this info would have been in the Auto Tune directions on how to use Auto Tune,,,,,would have saved me 3 back tires I burnt off learning(one Month). End result was all worth it. Cheers.

One thing the guys using Autotune on their C14s are doing, is using the ability to configure the map switch to turn Autotune off. And they are running a zero map in the piggy (so its just doing what the ECU tables say) and then use Autotune to develop improvements to the zero map/ECU.

Then when you turn Autotune off, you revert to the map in the ECU (aka a zero map).

When you turn it back on, the mapping in Autotune is applied again.

I still can't find a reason to use it, but that is just because I'm a set-and-forget-it kind of guy.

* Last updated by: privateer on 4/27/2012 @ 4:37 AM *