It's long past time for a sequel to My Sportbike Ratings Preference thread from 6 years ago and my oh' my how things have changed! Bikes that were first are now last and bikes that were last are now first or nearly so and I have added several tasty newcomers to the mix and deleted one, the 2012 CBR 10000RR, which got sold off to make room in the garage for the 2021 RSV4.

My new top dog is the 2020 BMW S1000RR M package and what a machine it is! It wins by doing everything really well and having no real faults. It's power is class leading along with the venerable 2021 RSV4 but it is so much easier to ride quickly due to the way it makes it's power. Over 200 rear wheel HP, tons of low end thrust due to Shift Cam Technology and smooth, linear power from 4000 rpm to it's screaming 15,000 rpm redline courtesy of Bren Tune and an Akra full system. Looks are subjective but I think it looks stunning in BMW's Motorrad livery and tasty carbon fiber bits and the handling is sublime due to light weight carbon fiber wheels and dialed in chassis and suspension. The way it changes direction has to be experienced, it almost feels like cheating and the ergos are supremely comfortable. The Nissin brakes are excellent in feel, overall strength and modulation. It tops nearly every category and takes the win by a comfortable margin, it's a sportbike masterpiece! The only negative traits I can think of are the engine is a bit vibey at the clipons, not super annoying but not Kawasaki smooth either. I also dislike the giant yellow warning that blocks off the entire TFT display screen if something is wrong until you can clear it and the parts for this machine are UBER-EXPENSIVE! I just replaced a front carbon fiber OEM wheel, $3770 before sales tax and labor charges....OUCH!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/25/2024 @ 8:24 AM *

I'm going to take a guess, see how close I get. List is best bottom end torque, then torque that signs off first, finally handling. Probably way off.

Best Torque:
1. 14
2. Duc
3. Ape
4. RR

First to sign off:
1. Ape
2. RR
3. Duc
4. 14

Best Effortless Handling:
1. RR
2. Duc
3. Ape
4. 14

Hubster you got the torque and handling department winner dead on, not sure about "first to sign off" but that would be the Repsol CBR1000RR I think, it's all midrange power on that bike but there's nothing up top near the redline.

Standby, I will review all my current sportbikes one by one, you can probably guess, the ZX-6R was in top spot way back in 2018 cause it was easiest to ride but I've come a ways in 6 years as a rider and it is now relegated to "also ran" status. Still a lot of fun but it's handling is about on par with my top liter class bikes but way off the pace on pure speed.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/25/2024 @ 7:15 AM *

In the number two spot and this was a very tough decision, my '16 ZX-10R just edges out the '21 RSV4. This bike has a lot of presence in the KRT color way, has ultra sharp handling, great stability and rocket like top end thrust once you clear 9000 rpm, it only really loses out to the BMW in the low end power department. The BMW has grunt everywhere while the ZX-10R is gutless below 6000 rpm, my ZX-6R would literally spank the '16 in that range. Where this bike really shines is in it's sure footed handling, great but not overwhelming brakes, a turbine smooth engine (like all the Kawasakis) and just easy to ride fast, it is closest to the BMW in overall feel and beats the BMW in engine smoothness. The S1000RR is a bit vibey through the clipons due to the lack of a balance shaft but it's not an annoying vibe. Six years ago I was not wild about the '16 due to it's two stroke powerband with the great rush of topend thrust but after riding the beast-like RSV4 for two years, the ZX-10R feels just right and more friendly.

In third spot and this pains me as this bike is so brilliant in so many categories, is the venerable 2021 RSV4. Hands down the winner on pure power, the 65 degree V4 engine in this thing is positively insane! It's a little fluffy below 4000 rpm but once it clears 5000 rpm it pulls like nothing else I've ever ridden and just keeps on pulling until it crashes into the rev limiter at 13,600 rpm, it's relentless torque and eye watering speed, makes my tuned '06 ZX-14 feel tame in comparison. Literally I am just off idle, maintenance throttle at 130 mph in 5th gear, crazy speed! So the motor really is the star of this show and everything else takes a backseat. Suspension is good, I haven't had to touch anything yet which is always a good sign and the handling is sharp if just a tad heavy on initial turn in by comparison to the BMW and '16 ZX-10R which are almost telepathic in the way they can track an apex. The Brembo Stylema brakes with stock pads were brick wall solid with superb modulation but I've lost some of that by changing to EBC HH pads which are inexpensive but definitely not up to Brembo OEM pad standards in initial bite, power or feel. Will probably go back to Brembos next pad change. OK where does this bike lose out to the ZX-10R and S1000RR? There is just something about the ergonomics and weight of this machine (around 460 lbs wet) along with the top heavy feel of the V4 engine, combined with the intense power delivery that leaves me feeling that something could go wrong pretty quickly if I'm not careful. It is 2 years old yesterday, so I have a lot of saddle time on this bike but I'm still not fully comfortable on it. By comparison, the first time I rode my BMW S1000RR I felt like I had been on it all my life and it's something that can only be experienced, you can't really define it in words but it's tangible and real. I think part of the problem is that the RSV4 is so incredibly powerful that I don't feel like I am coming close to tapping into it's true performance capability. I think the '16 ZX-10R and BMW S1000RR feel very balanced, easy peasy like everything works in perfect harmony while the RSV4 almost feels like the motor overwhelms the chassis, brakes and suspension, I don't think it really does, it just feels that way, it's an experts bike that needs a really sure hand to reign in it's overwhelming exuberance. The RSV4 is the hands down winner if you are an adrenaline addict, it's a race bike pure and simple!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/25/2024 @ 8:29 AM *

Kruz, nice write-up and oh, what a surprise!

I was wrong on the first to sign off. Didn't bring in the Honda of the fleet being the winner to lose all its poop. The big surprise was the Ape having all the gorilla torque over the 14.

I'm in 6th gear, about 3,800 rpm = 65 mph give or take. Any door slammer I feel is about to enter my lane (yesterday), it's instant and way ahead of the front fender before I see the tire cross the lane. And this is pulling up along side of it, being more at the back door watching the car move over.

So 'for 40yrs you're telling me' the Ape is king kong of the low end torque to dart away from this? No shifting down, mind you.

Hub, ZX-14 is undisputed low end Torque King, mine starts pulling hard at around 1800 rpm, right off idle and keeps on pulling until it eventually signs off the torque parade at around 8500 while still making good power well past 10,000 rpm. It will absolutely smash the APE below 5000 rpm but after that the APE has the 14's measure. In terms of seat of the pants feel, the 14's not even close butt.....some of that may be down to how the V4 delivers it's throttle response versus the big I4 in the ZX-14. The V4 throttle response is immediate, pulls hard right now which is what is off putting in the corners where adding power can sometimes upset chassis balance if it's too abrupt, the 14 throttle response is buttery smooth despite no TC to reign in the party. So in real world the two machines may be closer than they first appear in the twisties. In a drag race from a dead stop, ZX-14 wins everytime, the APE's launch control is unrefined, it's physically small, top heavy and wheelie prone. ZX14's long wheelbase, heavy front end and smooth power delivery off the bottom means quick 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
For top end pull I like 150 mph for a roll on, ZX-14 will start to taper off acceleration while the APE is still stretching your arms out. Different strokes but both good in their own right, I'll get to the ZX-14 soon, it is solidly mid pack in this crowd despite being the oldest (18 years old) and heaviest (520 lbs)sportbike I own and completely devoid of any modern rider aids.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/25/2024 @ 12:26 PM *

Ok, now we're starting to get into second tier (older) machines and it gets tougher to pick winners and losers, BTW there really are no losers here, only degrees of goodness with standout features for even the back of the pack finishers. I am torn between the '11 ZX-10R and ZX-14 for fourth place but give the nod to the ZX-10R by a whisker. The '11 ZX-10R is like an old pair of slippers, it just flat works. It feels most like the S1000RR in almost every category if you keep rpm below about 11,000 where the S1000RR goes ballstic and might just out grunt the Beemer in the low end. It is comfortable, smooth, has smooth linear power, decent low end, OK midrange and good top end delivery despite not being tuned, stock ECU map and still has the CAT in place with just a Yoshi slipon. It has agreeable ergos, decent suspension, it's agile, corners really well and is stable. Brakes are solid but not outstanding. Looks are matte black, not a real looker but not a wallflower by any means. It is friendly to ride and is the proverbial all rounder. If it was a high school athlete it would letter in varsity baseball, basketball and football but would not be a standout in any one sport.

[

Now it gets really hard, I already know which bikes are going to finish in the last two positions but the ZX-14 and Ducati 959 I really like and for vastly different reasons. The Ducati is gorgeous, a real head turner as only Italians can do but the ZX-14 has aged well, like a sexy hollywood starlet, think Rachel Welch here. I am going to give fifth place to the ZX-14 on sheer ability. It is heavy, bulky but carries it's weight well and still looks awesome 18 years on. It's like a slightly overweight ballerina that can still perform. I am always surprised by how well it can hold it's own against lighter, more focused, more technologically advanced rivals, Mother Teapot got this one right. Brakes are OK, definitely older gen but still work well. Suspension is soft(running out of adjustment on the clickers)but still controls the motion despite it's sizable girth and weight. Torque is immense right off the bottom and top end power is more than adequate to run up front in a pack of literbikes on your favorite twisty road. It is amazingly agile for what it is and can actually outcorner many of it's lightweight rivals. A stand out feature is all day comfort, it's the only bike I would ride 250 miles to get to some great twisty roads and still be able to run up front in a pack. Reliability? In 18 years it's had exactly one failure, a broken ECU CAN bus wire that left me with no tachometer but was fixed with a simple solder splice. Negatives? It eats rear tires if you run soft rubber like an RS11 or SuperCorsa SP, maybe 800 miles, fronts maybe 1500-1600 miles.

In at sixth place is the gorgeous and always sexy '16 Ducati 959. Hands down one of my favorites in the looks department, it is aging really well 8 years on. Despite claims of unreliable Italian machines, the 959 has proven very reliable with only a front cylinder oil leak spoiling a near perfect record. Downsides, in typical Panigale fashion it runs hotter than a Roman Candle, ambient temperature plus 120 F at speed, so on a 90 F summer day it runs right at 210 F at 100 mph, right below where the cooling fan kicks in. On the plus side it will not go above 217 F even when full stopped in traffic, so the fan actually works. Parts are very expensive, an oil change runs about 3 times that of a typical Jap bike. Other foibles again heat related, in summer temps, the heat coming off the rear cylinder will boil your spuds in the bag and will burn the inside of your thighs unless you are wearing leathers. Pluses are many, the bike handles incredibly well despite suspension that is rock hard. It is true what they say about Ducati race bikes, they don't start working right until you are at a 90% pace, ride it slowly and it will pummel your backside into steak tartare, ride it like you stole it and it is sublime! In typical two pot fashion it has great low end torque and will still spin up and make good power. On the dyno it only makes 133HP at the back tire but holds it's own with older gen liter bikes on a twisty road. It has a distinctive low frequency L twin vibe that is not at all annoying and the exhuast note is my favorite next to the RSV4's growl. The 959 is loaded with character and punches well above it's weight when ridden in anger. It's a machine that you buy with your heart, not with your brain, if you can justify the cost, you will love owning one!

In seventh place is the 2015 Honda CBR1000RR SP Repsol Edition. This is another tough one to call but someone had to come in last and it's the '09 ZX-6R. The Repsol is a fantastic looking machine, gets a lot of attention but it suffers from being too little too late for Honda. I call it the sheep in wolf's clothing effect, based on looks and the spec sheet alone it would appear to be a killer race bike but despite the upscale Ohlins and Brembo components it's a little on the bland side. If this were a Consumer Report review it would get a satisfactory rating in all categories. It's a typical Honda product, excellent refinement, build quality and reliability but comes up a bit short in pure performance. It handles well, has good suspension and adequate brakes but with about 150 HP at the rear wheel and no TC or other electronic rider aids it's kind of average, does everything well but doesn't really stand out in any one area except looks. It's a pleasant enough ride and will get a march on if necessary but it's all midrange and no low end or top end performance, kind of peters out if you try and rev it to redline. It makes a great road bike and for someone stepping up from a Supersport 600cc machine would be an ideal first liter bike. If it had another 15 to 20 rear wheel HP it would be an awesome machine but that's a bridge too far for this bike.

Last but not least is the '09 ZX-6R. It's a great little bike and a lot of fun but it was ever going to be relegated to also ran status in this crowd due to only 600cc and 110 rear wheel HP. It's got excellent low to mid range for a Supersport, handles well, has great brakes and suspension and has proven to be very reliable over the past 15 years but it comes up short on performance unless you're on a tight track or twisty road. The engine is smooth and the power linear and it's fun to rev it to the moon on a twisty backroad but I'm a big guy and it suffers from a lack of top end speed performance. The good news is it forces you to up your corner speed game to makeup for lack of power coming off a corner. I was really torn on this one, in some ways I actually prefer this machine to the more powerful Repsol Honda which is so civilized it's almost boring, in many ways the little ZX-6R is more thrilling to ride.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 2/27/2024 @ 9:46 PM *

My only cruiser, the '04 VTX1300C is my first road bike since the late 1970s and I have kept it as a sentimental favorite for the past 20 years.

I have it slammed and it looks like a Harley-Davidson Fatboy except it has way better handling and reliability.

It's heavy at 650 lbs and underpowered with maybe 50 rear wheel HP, vibrates a lot but by Harley standards is pretty smooth and it doesn't leak oil like a Harley.

Performance, handling and brakes are barely adequate but it does have a nice exhaust tone and looks gorgeous in that candy apple red paint and the engine really smooths out at 90 mph indicated in 5th gear and will run there all day long.

It's a favorite with the ladies, why I'll never know and in typical Honda fashion has been as reliable as a claw hammer for over 20 yrs and 50,000 miles.

Well, that's pretty much my take on the bikes, but I seem to be impressed with the ZX10.

The Ape is sporty streetsteer.
The Duc is a turnkey entry level race bike and not much of a street bike.
The 10 is 60/40 of a production racer/street bike.
The RR is more a gentlemans' sport bike.
The Honda is more a sleeper, meaning, they have the base already, you need to tweak it to beat the rest.
The 14 is more the everymans' bike, being moped friendly for the timid and light switch wicked for the other men.

My take meaning, no need to chase that torque to weight ratio. The 14 still clears the fenders.

Well, that's pretty much my take on the bikes, but I seem to be impressed with the ZX10.

The Ape is sporty streetsteer.
The Duc is a turnkey entry level race bike and not much of a street bike.
The 10 is 60/40 of a production racer/street bike.
The RR is more a gentlemans' sport bike.
The Honda is more a sleeper, meaning, they have the base already, you need to tweak it to beat the rest.
The 14 is more the everymans' bike, being moped friendly for the timid and light switch wicked for the other men.

My take meaning, no need to chase that torque to weight ratio. The 14 still clears the fenders.

Oh shit kruz, don't get me started on the VT series. OZ received a dandruff dust off his shoulders. I was full on brat stinging most every post once those shittyits fucked with the air screws, plus the pipe and air cleaner changes to make it worse.

Complaint after complaint about driveability issues. They have no clue of the initial turnouts of the air screw, and then a sensitive tachometer that can read a drop of 25-50 rpm increments. It's called an 'idle lean drip' and there are more procedures to it with altitude, etc.

Guy had the first VT series when they came out. I serviced the bike and sunk the carbs to the point of such a response, he was as impressed with it as I was. Never got the sync like that with the other VT's. It was a Cali emissions bike even.

So I knew how well they ran if you left it the fuck alone. I laughed pressing send as the posts were brutal, calling that carb problem being the fiddlefucking screw squids.

Still there but refuse to do any other throttle response issues. There is so much of the head beating you can say for fucking with the set tune.

Air screws have a plug over them being factory set. All it needed was a sync. Only needed drilling out if the carbs were dirty/clogged. Other than that, it's like a set jet.

Signed,
Gotta Fiddlefuck From Stock Club

Hub, you are the Jedi Master of analog carb tuning, no doubt about it....

Update, #2 is challenging #1 to a title rematch as in the '16 X-10R vs the reigning champ BMW S1000RR. Rode the '16 ZX-10R yesterday and it is very hard to split these two machines, the Kwacker is sooooo good! I'm going to back to back ride them and break it down on points. Clear winner on lowend is the BMW, clear winner on engine smoothness is the turbine like ZX-10R mill. All other points are up for debate including corner carving but if nothing else the 10R runs it very close. Since these are my two "top guns", I want to do a detailed point by point analysis as to how they compare, I don't have access to a dynamometer so will have to use "seat of the pants" evaluation for torque and power. On paper at least, the BMW should win this with relative ease as it is full dekat with Bren Stage 1 Tune and a full Akrapovic Titanium exhuast system while the ZX-10R is stock with a slipon and kat still in place. On the dyno, the S1000RR has about 30 HP advantage at the back tire but we don't ride dynos, so we'll see what the butt dyno says.

The Three Top Guns!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/2/2024 @ 3:28 PM *

Well Hubster, the title rematch did not go well for the '16 ZX-10R challenger, it was not a knockout but lost the decision on points. As good as the 10R is, the BMW beats it by just a hair in virtually every category except engine vibration. The S1000RR has an almost "Magic" feel to it, feels telepathic the way it hunts down an apex. The S1000RR is Da Champ!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/2/2024 @ 5:30 PM *

Interesting. Looks like the weight of both are about equal give or take a few pounds to the zx being lighter.

Negative Hub, Beemer is around 423 lbs wet with the carbon fiber wheels and fairings, actually my lightest bike next to the ZX-6R which is roughly the same. '16 ZX-10r comes in right at 450 lbs wet though you would never know it while riding, the '11 ZX-10R is around 430 lbs wet.

Yes Kruz, that was just a quick pick of a wet vs dry of checking both numbers flashing at me and used the give or take. Year lookup was not as per year. Same with the torque specs below.

Now I looked up both torque specs and they kind of spank each other meaning:
203hp 84tq on the ZX
205hp 83tq at the RR

And say between years gone by till now is another give or take of 116-120tq. on the 14. And whoever I ask, there is this 'it's so freak'in fast' are the other bikes. And when I say will it beat the 14, it's always a no. Now, if KTM would come around and offered road tests on the 1390, all I need is 200ft (AJ Foyt in pit lane*) to see if 107tq is going to satisfy me.

*So AJ was asked to ride an indy car doing something funny. He got in, took off and turned around. He knew exactly what it was. I know what he means. Guy [repeat?] walked up to me and said his bike steered OK one way, but was sketchy the other way. Walked to his bike, and the instinct was to look at the forks. Sure enough, one was way higher out of the top crown than the other.

There is this certain something if you know what I mean, that once you taste torque it's hard to taste anything lower.

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/2/2024 @ 9:38 PM *

Torque is King Hub......

New Sheriff is in town and it's good, this bike is near the top of the heap based on pure enjoyment of riding, right now I'd place it solidly in the top three, it's that much fun to ride!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/30/2024 @ 9:03 PM *

Top three out of ten, that's saying something! I would have guessed. If you have a place you can ride all out, I'd expect a small bike would be the best weapon.

Yessir, it's often said it is more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow and this is a good case in point, this bike is fun because you can really wring it's neck while the RSV4 is just the opposite, too fast for my present skill level and the road conditions I ride under. Right now I'd say the RS660 bumps the RSV4 out of third back to fourth place despite a 125 HP power deficit. That is not to say the RS660 is faster than the RSV4, quite the opposite is true; but it is more engaging and fun to ride fast and it's the experience that we are looking for.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 4/10/2024 @ 8:26 PM *