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Thread: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?

Created on: 06/15/21 10:28 AM

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Rook


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Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/15/21 10:28 AM

Is it safe to run the bike if the battery drops to 11v within 24 hours? I'd leave it on a charger when not in use so the bike will start and I can ride. I'd be doing this for a couple weeks until my new battery comes in.

I suppose it would be possible that the battery might get so bad that it would overload the charging system. It doesn't look as though that is happening, the battery has been running at 13.9 to 14.1v while I'm riding. The battery only goes low when it sits overnight off a charger.



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Hub


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn&#x27&#x3b;t holding a charge&#x3f&#x3b;
06/15/21 1:28 PM

Probably the ratio of mix to acid is that water escaping out the vent, to battery prep, to aging all that chemRe is no longer reacting. Plates are eaten slowly, to the white crystals between plates on the evap and transfer is so-so.

This is your mental tool box working with E. Running wise, you are familiar with fuel-spark-compression as your mental chasing down who is out of the loop? So this is in the save file; 'Magnetism ~ you cannot separate heat from the chemical reaction.'

Now we can diagnose the charging/electrical system on this kind of think. Like, think about that battery being charged and is it sort of hot once you take it off the charger? Yes? See how the heat is localized and does not transfer the heat from one plate to the next? Cool is the charge. Hot is the resistance so flow is sort of no-go.

Say, day by day it keeps dropping on the voltage holding. That deterioration is going to park you where you sit, eventually. Pull the battery now and see if the ground is corroded with white powder like mine did. Still used the correct grease but still E'd me.

There is no overload per say. Walk the E to see. 14v is the push. Ohm is the white crystal build or a resistance. Amp is the heat transferring into the case, or a fat capacitor that cannot chemically move that molecule but heats up in so many analogies. See the cannot separate heat from the chemicals about to melt the crystals and boom goes the split at the case, if not begins to bulge first.

Now say it does have electrolysis at the cable. Dip the cable in straight vinegar and let it bubble till it stops bubbling. Then run the vin and add some baking soda. Then soda and water alone. Then rinse with water and spray it with WD40. Scrap new metal on the cable's battery side, and too to the battery lead. Q-tip dipped in vinny is a dry wipe, not where it's so soaked it runs down the lead post and in the battery case. Just enough to clean it off with a few tips.

Now bench charge it and if it cooks hot at the case? Take the car. Unless AAA is paid up with bike tow package, have at it.

Remember that battery pre-prep I walked Maddy thru? If that battery is coming BS (battery acid supplied), you might want to 3x's it and see how long it lasts v. wet and install. I have to prep a cheap no-name aftermarket BS battery pretty soon. Blew me away I had 4v reading with the silver strip still over the case holes. My OEM '017 is still dry and reads 0v. I used my '013 battery and it finally went south this year... and kept it charged too. When you take it out of the box, see if it reads voltage? Just curious.


* Last updated by: Hub on 6/15/2021 @ 1:36 PM *



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/15/21 2:04 PM

Thanks, Hub. This is my 10 year old lithium/iron Shorai battery so it has no water. I would assume much of the same info still applies.

Now we can diagnose the charging/electrical system on this kind of think. Like, think about that battery being charged and is it sort of hot once you take it off the charger? Yes? See how the heat is localized and does not transfer the heat from one plate to the next? Cool is the charge. Hot is the resistance so flow is sort of no-go.

No hotness anywhere that I noticed and it's been deteriorating in its ability to hold a charge for years now. I've taken it out and had it on the charger during storage the last 6 years and I know I've taken it out to charge a couple times when it went dead during the riding season. I probably would have noticed if it were hot after a charge.

Say, day by day it keeps dropping on the voltage holding. That deterioration is going to park you where you sit, eventually. Pull the battery now and see if the ground is corroded with white powder like mine did. Still used the correct grease but still E'd me.

No corrosion on ground or terminals. I use dialectric grease too on al of those connections.

When you take it out of the box, see if it reads voltage? Just curious.

The new battery? It will probably be the same Shorai I'm replacing and that one definitely had voltage out of the box. It started the 14 perfectly well in the cold air and that's after the Shorai sat on the shelf for 4 months without a trickle charger.

I just came back from a ride. The dying battery was at 12.8v after charging. The bike started. The bike's voltmeter read between 14.1 and 13.8 the whole time I rode. That sounds like what I've always been used to seeing so I don't think it's overloading the charging system, it just won't hold the charge after the charging system shuts down. I'll keep it on the charger overnight until the new Shorai gets here as long as it won't hurt the bike. If it dies on me, I don't ride more than 10 miles away. That'll be a long walk pushing a 14 but I'll take the chance. I actually know a guy that lives out there. I could probably leave it at his place if it dies and run to get a cheap battery at Walmart.


* Last updated by: Rook on 6/15/2021 @ 2:05 PM *



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/15/21 2:07 PM

...or I could just get a cheap battery at Walmart right now!



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Hub


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 8:18 AM

Here I'm thinking you run BS style. I'd say for that little puppy it was pretty good service. In a round about way, we found out that battery [brand] was not up for the total loss system we were using. Found another company that fit in the same battery box I made for the Shorai and has been reliable ever since. Don't recall the name, but if I saw the battery or name...

Oh shit, Rook... don't know if I want to tell you this. Just pack the charger on the bike/backpack, and if you need a jump, you sit around like waiting at some tesla stall aka, your guy's wall socket. Anyway, ever take apart a 9v battery shell and expose those batteries all soldered up in a few rows? Guess what's inside the Shorai and others, I'll assume... a bunch of cells soldered up with the plus/- wires and the charge head wiring.

So if you hacksaw the bottom base, say up an 1/8th inch, you pop the cap off, look at what's inside and then peel the case away, and salvage the wiring coming off the top of the case. When we were getting this one-off bike together, someone gave him a Shorai battery pack off their old race bike and when I saw it, it reminded me of the cutaway 9v.



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 9:39 AM

Found another company that fit in the same battery box I made for the Shorai and has been reliable ever since. Don't recall the name, but if I saw the battery or name...

Looks like there's been no meaningful change in light weight battery products since they became available ten years ago but some brands have disappeared and a whole bunch more have sprung up. I see some batteries that weigh a pound and a half for $35. My little Shorai has (had) 210 CCA and it started but always took at least 3 or four turns when cold. I'd only get one that has the CCA rated at 200 or more and for that, you might pay almost as much as a Shorai. The Firepower Featherweight rated at 310 CCA is $125. I've been told that all LiFe batteries are the same. The difference is the amount of LiFe material in the cells and that's where the difference in weight and CCA comes from.

Oh shit, Rook... don't know if I want to tell you this. Just pack the charger on the bike/backpack, and if you need a jump, you sit around like waiting at some tesla stall aka, your guy's wall socket.

Not a bad idea, the charger would fit in the battery box next to the battery. I could have it hooked up and leave the AC plug hang out! By the looks of it, this battery might die slow enough that I could actually do that but the price is the number of unlubricated turnovers it takes before the engine starts. That increases as the ability to hold a charge decreases. Eventually, with the battery at full charge, it would wear out before it turned the motor over enough times to start it. I'm see this already with the battery at 11v and then go to 8v after eight turnovers. No sense in trying after that, the battery might go back up to 11v one time but that's still too low to start the bike.

Guess what's inside the Shorai and others, I'll assume... a bunch of cells soldered up with the plus/- wires and the charge head wiring.

You can't see the cells but here's what the stuff on top looks like. Shorai is still a popular choice but Full Spectrum seems to be the battery of choice now. About the same price as a Shorai for a battery the same size.


* Last updated by: Rook on 6/16/2021 @ 9:41 AM *



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 10:34 AM

Ringa-dang-ding, Hub! I just went out and checked the Shorai after sitting in the bike 24 hours without the charger and it's at 12.9v. I think it all has to do with air temperature at this point. If it's in a hot garage with warm weather outside, it'll start after 24 hours. Cool weather, probably not unless it's charged. It's still time to buy a new battery because the battery could die in either of my bikes at any moment and I'd be unable to ride. At this point though, I would go buy a cheap lithium battery at Walmart. It should last at least as long as a lead acid regardless of the manufacturer.



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Hub


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 1:02 PM

It would be fun to wet one and then prep one and see how long they last.

12.9v is junk. When I was charging these, you know the LED readings? They'd come off the charger well over 13v statically. The spark box would not last that low a voltage. Maybe 4-5 laps and it starts breaking up. We'd see 12v statically and say WTF?

I just know some have their OEM last about 7 years on a wet only, I'm sure. My OE was prepped per small print, meaning, you can't separate the heat from the chemical reaction. Or said another way, the wet chemRe was a double oh seven kind of stir not shaken. The 3x's is the shaking up a good mix of acid to water in the heat of those recharges.

See how that theory kind of works making E last longer?



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 4:40 PM

It would be fun to wet one and then prep one and see how long they last.

LOL not in my bike! ...and you'd have to drill a hole in the top and stick a stopper in there because the case is sealed. My impression was that water was the reason lead acid batteries shorted out eventually. I think the same ting would happen with a lithium iron battery if it were to be wet. It works dry so why put water in it? Yeah, it would be an interesting experiment but for all I know, that might make the battery explode if water is conducting electricity where there were only intended to be wires.

12.9v is junk. When I was charging these, you know the LED readings? They'd come off the charger well over 13v statically. The spark box would not last that low a voltage. Maybe 4-5 laps and it starts breaking up. We'd see 12v statically and say WTF?

Maybe 12.9 is junk but it goes to 14 when I ride and holds at 13.8 when the motor gets hot. The charger is only supposed to bring it up to 80% so I doubt you'd ever see a full 14 without running it in the bike. I don't recall what kind of charge it held for how long when I first started using it but it's 10 years old now and been abused a few times. I know I ran it lower than 9v a couple times trying to start the bike and that, according to Shorai, can cause permanent damage. So try once at 12v and if it won't start, get out the charger is what I should have done. The Shorai charger even says to consider keeping in on the battery in STORE mode if the battery has ever been over-discharged. That's where I've been at the last several years with this and it appears to be getting more severe with time. ...so time for a new battery.

You run batteries that run way low in race bikes with no charging systems, right? Yeah, you'd want a full charge for that but as long as my bike keeps it close to 14v, that's good for me. I'd prefer it be close to 14v when it comes time to start too so we're back to a new battery.



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Hub


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/16/21 6:34 PM

No, no, Rook, I'm talking about BS style. Funny boy, who is going to drill into a Shorai? Is that what you thought? Again, master the E by thinking those little AA type lith batteries have a jell more or less and heat moves the molecules in a magnetic way. Water and acid have to stay mixed as does jell.

Your walmart battery is BS and that means you keep cooking the water and acid... starts out like oil and water in the acid bag. Sits on the shelf and all that [separation] time of the pre-cook v. pour and put into service. That's the test I meant.

You are still up against chemRe when the acid/water sit for weeks not being cooked on a charger. That's one chemRe. That white shit starts when the acid mix is lower than the plates. That's now another chemRe [if refilling applies]. Can't anymore with this style sealer cap, not individual filler caps.

Heat expands so it has to have a vent or the battery box will bulge out. No transfer from plate to plate, heat zero's into that resistance and that too expands the case.

Here's the deal. Same battery dimensions, but heavier because of more jell making E or more stored 'push' by weight. Same trunk space but bigger balls. Now if you want to drill two dead lith boxes, bet the Shorai holds more water. That's why the weight sacrifice. Won't finish the race and gram for gram... sounds like a plan.

Race is no rotor, stator, reg, nor all that harness wiring. You'd love total loss... for about 7 miles.



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/17/21 1:58 AM

How are you going to wet and prep a lithium battery if you can't open it up? You mean grab it and shake like a bottle of salad dressing?

Yes, heavier lithium iron batteries have more lithium and iron in them. If you're looking for power, the heavy one will get the job done better. I plan to run a nitrous system maybe for up to 30 seconds. I wouldn't want to wear the battery out doing 198 mph so I'm thinking about going to a heavier battery. Two pounds still is a very light battery. Even five pounds is good if it's necessary.



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Hub


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/17/21 11:34 AM

LOL,

Camera batteries, phone batteries, watch batteries, these are lithium style.
BS is a motorcycle OEM type. A non-removable cap, but still acid inside.

You are confusing yourself when the packaging is for the lith batteries to fit the OEM battery cages. They are like a set of balls sitting in oversized underwear. I said nothing about adding water into a lith battery, shake it up, etc. You missed heat being the shakeup on its own. I said to saw off the underwear and there are your batteries. Who wants to carry around a set of 100% cotton briefs if you can swing your nuts in the air and cool off the 'heat' [lasts longer] is heat kills the hard parts, but if swinging? You can extend the life of those nuts hitting the floor. You know how much fromunda cheeze you can knock off with that kind of air pressure whizzing by?

Being ounce driven for weight, I said to saw away the case for those grams/ounces, even thought they are light to begin with... well, ounce for ounce? LOLOLOL That explain it any better?

BS stands for "Battery (acid) Supplied." Remember your original battery, where you could not check the drop of water like an old car battery? Remember they say to add distilled water only if the water drops? Acid is to heavy to evap so in goes the water and that's mix-mix-mix oil and vinegar all over again = Heat it to cause the chemicals to react is the mix or they separate sitting without being charged = HA(eat).

See that theory being applied? Which one, the nuts or add water to lithee hum



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/17/21 12:39 PM

You missed heat being the shakeup on its own. I said to saw off the underwear and there are your batteries. Who wants to carry around a set of 100% cotton briefs if you can swing your nuts in the air and cool off the 'heat' [lasts longer] is heat kills the hard parts, but if swinging?

OK, got ya now but I'll be damned if I'll saw the bottom off a new battery! I thought you meant the old one but that one's already gone by the wayside.

Being ounce driven for weight, I said to saw away the case for those grams/ounces, even thought they are light to begin with... well, ounce for ounce? LOLOLOL That explain it any better?

Now you're speaking my language. I still don't know that I can bring myself to saw the bottom off a new battery. I might try it with the old one just to see if it destroys the battery.

I emailed the Dyno-tune Nitrous guy about battery requirements and he said the Shorai I had used in the past would be fine for powering a solenoid as long as I have my alternator on the bike and operating. They only had problems killing the battery using multiple stages with big solenoids. So I'm leaning toward a new Shorai the same model as I have now. I already have the charger and it won't work with a Full Spectrum battery being that Full Spectrum has no external charging port and uses a traditional +/- alligator clip setup for charging instead. Probably get a Full Spectrum for the busa. That battery is 11 years old. I will have to test it. That's ancient for a lead acid.



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Hub


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn&#x27&#x3b;t holding a charge&#x3f&#x3b;
06/17/21 3:30 PM

Discarded means Meguyveer. He's always picking something up and then you see how he uses it? I meant saw the old Shorai not a BS style that came with the bike. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no lith batteries for production bikes. E-bikes sure, but it's BS for all their normally aspirated bikes.

Back to a chemical reaction is to use baking soda and water to neutralize the acid. Then you can cut a BS battery open and salvage the lead [lead-acid battery] and melt the lead for fishing sinkers... as meguyveer thinks... Gee I'm hungry for a hacksaw.

Here, imagine looking inside a Shorai battery case. Forget about the charging connector in the middle. Just think of the (+) wire and (-) wires as arms and a 9v batter dangling in the middle. Sure it's stabilized so the wires don't break off as if the 9v was a pendulum. Doubt if the bottom case has the 9v sitting at the bottom with longer arms?

What it [race pack] looked like was something like this. It had the charging connector too. Plaster of paris is out, soak this fiber to make you hand from moving is that new casting ribbon call it. It was kind of this material but shrunk tight like the blue one here. That's what I held in my hand basically.

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1xQeZD7yWBuNjy0Fpq6yssXXak/Scooter-battery-36v-4-4ah-battery-for-scooter-10S2P-20pcs-battery-inside-with-PCB-lithium-battery.jpg

Again, I said that little battery pack out of that Shorai case is right up Rook's alley. So you know it's so light, not much is spread out like a lith cage call it. Lined up like a wet battery, but lith battery after battery filling the top to bottom inside, no.

And just to be safe, I'd run a test bulb and drain the battery before I'd take some outside friction to it; if not touch both poles in the pack, or heat the chemRe to light off like a match... ass he saws away by a pond, pool, bucket of water say... oxygen is water so read up as we mix heat and chemRe is messing with E.

That was a hand-me-down racing style lith battery that velcro pads can't find a place for. That, or goop glue and take your pick for a solid mount. Look ma, no plastic battery cage, rubber strap, steel cage plate w/bolts. The scale reads?... did you drop the empty battery case on the scale too?

Disclaimer: WATT was I thinking?!
I never opened either a BS or lith style battery case. The Shorai battery pack was what I saw that looks like it came out of a Shoria, or that was some mean looking production quality type rip the lith batteries out and wire up the charger connector? I don't think so.

Here is where I'd saw a small enough 45° cut at the corner [opposite the post side], go down the other end and cut that tiny hole off the same way. I take a look down the ends and if I see daylight? Think of this as meguyveer weight is the sacrificial Shorai battery case. If you are using the battery tray, steel band, etc.


See me chasing weight?

Clap-Clap cage on-cage off...Clap-Clap case on-case off.


* Last updated by: Hub on 6/17/2021 @ 3:40 PM *



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Rook


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RE: Can I run my Gen1 ZX-14 with a battery that isn't holding a charge?
06/18/21 3:39 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no lith batteries for production bikes. E-bikes sure, but it's BS for all their normally aspirated bikes.

I think I might have heard the 2020 S1000rr came with a lithium battery.

OK Hub, the old Shorai is still working, at least it is for 24 hours before it needs a charge. I'll take a saw to it and do a vinyl wrap on whatever's inside. One thing that would be necessary would be some way to ensure the poles don't touch. I'll bet the bent steel straps they use for battery poles on a Shorai continue right inside to the battery cells instead of wire. We'll find out.



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