OK I know for the '06-'07, that pulling the secondary butterflies is one of the best performance upgrades, but on the '08 the power problems that the flies caused on the 1st generation. is non-existent.
So my ? is to Rook and all of the other'08-'09 owners that have pulled their flies..
Was it Worth it? explain?
and i don't want to know how to remove the flies, this has been covered time and time again....What i want to know is:
Has it effected your idle?
Is the power increase really noticible?
Has it made it harder to start?hot or cold?
Throttle response?
Hesitations,jerky?
idle fluctuations?
anything that you may have noticed that removing the flies caused????

I thought of pulling them to see for myself, but after thinking about how hard they would be to put back, i decided not too, until i knew that out, is what is Best??Thanks in advance>>

I removed my 06 secondaries and it causes no problems for starting idling(they don't even come into play with throttles closed) or anywhere else even without the power commander. If you look at part throttle maps for 06 anyway its not much different than stock. Bike runs fine without them would be a little lean at low rpms and wide throttle settings. But if you think about it how big of a factor is that. Three K rpms and heavy load not going to spend much time there unless you're cruising at 60 in top gear going up hills. But that would be on a 06 not the 08 so practically no diff I imagine. Had mine out for about 13000 miles. No problemo. Can't help you on the other half of the question as to whether its worth it on 08. I probably wouldn't do it. The only draw back to 06 is the boost in torque below 3k that the bike had with the secondaries in. That only comes into play when leaving a stop for about a split second or so and after that its all go.

I have an '08, yanked the flies at the same time that I put on a full exhaust and PC-III. I honestly believe %100 that pulling the flies made more of a perceivable difference in 'power' than anything else I did. It is 'right now' on the bottom end, with absolutely no negative side effects. If people think this is a 'twitchy throttle' they need to trade their 14 in for a Burgman.

I saw quite a few people reporting that they didn't like pulling the flies and that they put them back in on the Gen2 bikes. Quite baffling to me, even with a bread'n'butter map I am pretty much spot on and I couldn't be happier with the results. There is also no need for a TRE on mine, very mild burble the odd time when you drop past the 3500rpm mark that could never be conceived as a problem in any setting.

There is also no need for a TRE on mine, very mild burble the odd time when you drop past the 3500rpm mark that could never be conceived as a problem in any setting.

This is great news. I for one could not deal with that explosion inside my new pipes. There for (N) lock, TRE 006A, was a must .

The flies in my 08 have been out for 12,000 miles. Its my daily commuter and starts like a hot match in the cold MidWestern winter mornings down to 0F. Yes, electric suits rock! No effect on idle. No effect at all really...until the throttle is snapped open. That's when the bike feels 200 pounds lighter and hits the pavement like a demolition hammer. I have the TRE resistor and that makes a difference too. Got rid of that retarded timing and the fly choke. If I had left it stock, my cbr1000rr would be doing circles around my ZX14. My cbr600f4 too. The flies and retarded timing were too much of a Sunday drive to church. Now the throttle and timing are free of restrictions and I can get into all the trouble I want.

Where is Rook?

What i want to know is:

Has it effected your idle? No. If you remove the flies only, the choke ratchet system is still going to create a main throttle lift at the morning choke map and she will purr like normal.
Is the power increase really noticible? Yes... Subtle but there. Same example would be, "How fast can you leave the room... Go through 2 doors or 1 door?"
Has it made it harder to start?hot or cold? No, choke system is still intact and the sub-plates is open on choke start-up.
Throttle response? Ever so slightly improved.
Hesitations,jerky? There is a ((hez)) if you WOT the throttle at too low an rpm and too low a gear would cause the hesitation without the blend of the sub. Yes, ultra-jerky as in peak performance throttle response where the sub would slow that effect down.
idle fluctuations? No. It is as if the sub is cracked open by half. So how can the idle fluctuate but idle normal. Therefore, no idle searching up and down to be stable.
anything that you may have noticed that removing the flies caused???? Just the slight lag under heavy load. With the sub in place, it is gone.
Was it worth it? If you want the ultimate in speed entry or air, then yes, you remove all that is restricted and now you remove exhaust, air cleaner for better air speed; add a fuel piggy and you are set for bear.

Wear out is Rook?

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/1/2009 @ 6:25 AM *

My buddy has an 08 with no flies I rode the bike before and after and removing the flies made a difference. Nothing like the 06-07 bike but the improvement could be felt for sure.

Dattaway wrote:

If I had left it stock, my cbr1000rr would be doing circles around my ZX14

What year 1000RR dattaway? Sounds like we might have the same bike, I'd like to compare notes sometime.

Kruz

Has it effected your idle?
No, I once saw the bike idling fast but I think that was just me looking for problems after after pulling the flies. It must have just not been warmed up. I never adjusted the idle and it is idling at ~1100rpm when warm with the flies out - same as before flies out.

Is the power increase really noticible?
It seemed to make a bit of a difference but not too much. It is hard for me to say because I pulled the flies after a couple months of winter storage and then was not able to ride 'til late winter. It was ~5 months between flies in and flies out. The dif was not THAT dramatic or I would have noticed. One thing that tells me the low end power is improved is that the front seems to lighten quicker under less throttle in 1st & 2nd. Also, I acidentally took off in 2nd gear recently and the bike did not really seem to bog much at all. Flies in, it would have bogged a bit on a gentle take off in 2nd gear.

Flies in, the bike should do the same thing as flies out if you give it more throttle. <<If you go WOT in 1st & 2nd gears and you still feel you need a little more power, you need the flies out I guess. Gears 4,5,6 are flies open at all times so no change to performance there.

Has it made it harder to start?hot or cold?
No difference in starting.

Throttle response?
Same as before as far as I can tell. No worries at all cornering. I initially noticed a bit more of a tendency for the rear tire to spin a bit from take off from a light making a sharp right turn. That is the only cornering change I percieve. Just have to be careful - and who isn't even flies in?

Hesitations,jerky?
Same as new. Always felt getting on the throttle from closed position required some finessing or it will jump a little. Easy on or clutch modulation is the way to smooth for me flies in or out.

idle fluctuations?
Haven't noticed that at all except for the normal fast idle to idle at start up.

anything that you may have noticed that removing the flies caused????
A bit more bottom end, mostly percieved from take off. Like I said above, if you ride the bike balls out in 1 & 2 gears already, taking the flies out might give you more of what you need. Otherwise, save yourself the trouble. You are right, putting the flies back in would be a little tricky getting them to stick in place and then getting those tiny screws to go in the holes. Biggest reason to take them out of a G2 for me and most of the rest of us is just to say we did it. It hurts nothing - except your warranty, if still in effect.

One other thing REALLY worth mentioning - the power bump at 3K rpm is still present with the flies out. This did not smooth out very much by removing the flies as I anticipated it would. Apparently, the stock f/a ratios have a lot to do with this as much as the flies themselves.

Sorry for being away so much fellas. It is very nice that you guys noticed. I have some big social/family changes going on with my divorce and I'm taking care of that. BTW, the divorce seems to be going a lot more my way than I ever expected. No more sweating - for now.

Rook

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/1/2009 @ 8:17 AM *

I pulled the flies on the 08 and dyno tested/tuned with them in and out, pre and post mods (airfilter/pipe and PC III). Very little difference, and for me, on the twisties and race course, the twitchy throttle - loss of fine throttle control, the very little (TQ) gain was not worth losing the finesse in the throttle.

There is, as you know, a signifcant difference with the earlier bikes. Not so on this one. Kawa did a fantastic job in increasing this bikes lower end TQ while still leaving controllable fine throttle use. Most of the change you will get is from a new air filter and pipe change, with a tune.

In those twisties you want to be able to have very good roll-on control. You will lose that, and I believe, your better confidence in tight and fast turns, cause it is hard to predict how the throttle responds, 2nd gear particularly, and third some as well.

* Last updated by: JDC on 6/1/2009 @ 8:40 AM *

1+ JDC was getting that mark until..... Now, I have to set two different riders on either side of the subthrottle...

Subs In = "JDC: Kawa did a fantastic job in increasing this bikes lower end TQ while still leaving controllable fine throttle use."

Subs Out = "JDC: ... the twitchy throttle - loss of fine throttle control, the very little (TQ) gain was not worth losing the finesse in the throttle."

... Until the 'twitchy' part was said; is me, itching to have that in my right hand. I want nothing hidden to my twitch. So, there are ragged edge riders and settled-inn riders with the subs in place.

Therefore, if you cannot handle the 'twitch,' do not switch.

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/1/2009 @ 9:17 AM *

JDC is defiantly on point the throttle will get "twitchy" and it may not be worth it if you ride lots of sharp "twisties". However the earlier bikes were just dogs on the low end until the flies are removed. I never had any problems with the throttle during normal street ridding but in the really tight stuff I would occasionally let my attention stray and scare myself "shitless".So yes the on off throttle response can be scary if you loose focus. If you are not 110% confident in your throttle control particularly with the bike leaned over I would not do it. Although I will assume anyone that rides a ZX14 has enough throttle control to stay out of trouble but removing the flies takes away that safety margin for sure.

1minerman, I suggest you ride your 14 through some corners now with flies in and see if it doesn't jerk a tad from close throttle to openning it just a crack. You can even try cutting the throttle and easing back on while riding a straght line. I seem to recall that mine a small jump flies in and flies out. So touchy that the added sensitivety of a bare hand on the throttle improved the control over a gloved hand. For my riding so far I don't cut throttle to 100% closed on corners (unless it's an emegency situation). It doesn't become an issue to get back on it because I'm never all the way off it. Seems like this keeps the suspension more compressed and the weight distributed evenly for better cornering.

I don't know, maybe I could use some lessons in riding technique though.

I wonder if a PC will help the on/off throttle choppyness. Seems like it should smooth out the 3K power hit since the f/a will be adjusted to flies out. I should be finding that out soon. Going with PCV and autotune.

Rook

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/1/2009 @ 3:42 PM *

Rook:

1minerman, I suggest you ride your 14 through some corners now with flies in and see if it doesn't jerk a tad from close throttle to openning it just a crack. You can even try cutting the throttle and easing back on while riding a straght line. I seem to recall that mine a small jump flies in and flies out. So touchy that the added sensitivety of a bare hand on the throttle improved the control over a gloved hand. For my riding so far I don't cut throttle to 100% closed on corners (unless it's an emegency situation). It doesn't become an issue to get back on it because I'm never all the way off it. Seems like this keeps the suspension more compressed and the weight distributed evenly for better cornering

I have ridden it thru alot of corners, and have never had no jerkiness, honest very smooth, comparing to all the other bikes i have owned, this is the smoothest, especially to have close to 200hp..I guess those double crank balancers, Kruz was talking about, really work.

I do close my throttle all the way when slowing for a corner, especially when jamming down thru the gears, (why do you keep your throttle open while downshifting?), but once i start to open the throttle, i continue all the way out of the corner under acceleration, after the weight is transferring to the rear, I would never chop the throttle after opening it.

But I want to thank everyone for their input and 411 on the flies out in the '08...

After reading what everyone has said, I think I am going to keep mine.(at least until the warranty is expired, getting ready to buy 2 more years).

I can see the pros of removing that obstruction from the intake runners,for the ones that have removed theirs, and after the warranty expires, i will remove mine, but for no more than is gained, not going to take them out, that way i won't have to put them back, if something happens.

I can clutch her up in 3rd, with just a little throttle, so I believe I will leave the flies in, but if u had told me that i was going to get the increase that the 1st gen gets, then warranty or no warranty, those butterflies would be wind chimes.

Here is a little info on my map though I am actually running the Muzzy map for after-market air filter, and NO FLIES.

I tried every dynojet map(from the web site), for the 14, that was for a complete exhaust, even if it wasn't for a Muzzy exhaust. I also run the Muzzy map for flies and for without(from Muzzy). I run each of these maps for at least 100 miles,(UNLESS it was immediately apparent that it wasn't going to work, ex.throttle lag, ALOT of decel pops with a couple of the maps, noticible lack of power.. The best map out of all for my set-up was the Muzzy map for flies out..(Why is this, since my flies are in???)

Dogo was nice enough to send me one for my set-up, but i haven't had a chance to compare, to see if it is the same as one that has already been tried, hope it is different..THANKS Dogo...

I was getting ready to get a custom tune, and the PCV came out, so i am waiting to see if it is going to be the icing on the cake. If it is then, no custom tune and i will use that $250 for the PCV...So Dogo,Roman and evryone else trying to figure the ZX14 and the PCV out...Thanks and Good LUck!!!

I don't think on/off throttle response has anything to do with closing the throttle completely and opening the throttle again although I guess the term would lead someone to think so. I’m pretty sure its being able to role on the throttle smoothly without upsetting the bike which is more difficult on a zx14 with no flies even a bike with a PC and a good map. Closing an opening the throttle on a zx14 in a corner is just asking for trouble its just has to much Tq to damn early to be smooth.

I have a question about flies, that I guess I don't remember the straight answer of:
(Sorry I know this thread is about the 08)

If I remove the flies on my 07 and do not put a PC in right away, will it cause any harm to my engine?
I do recall something about it running lean, but that was about it.

If I remove the flies on my 07 and do not put a PC in right away, will it cause any harm to my engine?
I do recall something about it running lean, but that was about it.

I ordered and had the PC3 ready to be installed long before I took out the flies on my 07 couple of weeks ago. I have seen others in various forums who claim to have been riding their flies out setup without a PC3 for a year with no ill effects, but I personally wouldn't want to do that. Frankly, with PC3 and a generic map from Dynojet (will be doing a custom map later on), I have gotten much better on/off throttle response and smooth running engine. For the $275-$300 that you will spend on the PC3, it is worth it.

Here is a dyno chart of tuned flies in and tuned flies out. This is a conservative dyno.

willidx4 wrote:

I don't think on/off throttle response has anything to do with closing the throttle completely and opening the throttle again although I guess the term would lead someone to think so. I’m pretty sure its being able to role on the throttle smoothly without upsetting the bike

If we are not talking about letting the throttle off completely and then turning it open again, my feeling is that my bike runs smooth as long as I ride within my skills. I know I'm not up to rolling way open exiting a tight curve. High rpm probably has more to do with twitchyness than flies. I doubt I'm often exiting a hard corner above 4K rpm - a mere 3K is probably more typical for me on a real tight corner. The flies should be open even at those rpms so I don't think it should make too much dif flies in or out. The difference in twitchyness is only perceptable to me at take off and if that leads right to cornering, I'm always pretty careful on the throttle.

If it's bugging you, I think you should just pull 'em. That's what I did and I'm glad to have it off my mind.

Rook

High rpm probably has more to do with twitchyness than flies.

I believe it (twitchy/jumpy throttle) is more a function of the gear you are in. Second gear/third gear, in a curve, I do not want the bike jumping/the sudden lurch or surge when I am really wanting a 'gradual, controlled or paced' increase in acceleration in the curve and then a smooth hit entering the exit, but still in the curve, starting to straighten up/straightened up. I particularly don't want or like the lurch/surge when I am at the bikes limit of lean. It is a bit less noticeable in third, and mostly a non-issue in 4-6.

Street use it's not much of an issue, though I can tell it is still there. I do see how folks would equate that surge or hit with 'more' power with the flies out... which is really minimal on the 08's with the flies out. I believe that surge is just the mechanical impact of a little bit more immediacy of the air charge.

On the 06 and 07's I see that flies out made a much more significant difference, and that must have been pretty marked and noticeable when you made the mod change. Good reason to smile after pulling them.

* Last updated by: JDC on 6/2/2009 @ 9:57 PM *

Any little spot that could be called 'twitchy' is nowhere near where I will be sitting RPM-wise if I am in tight, twisty corners. This all depends on your gearing of course, the stock gearing is VERY high in my opinion and I can't wait to get a -1 sprocket on the front so my 2nd and 3rd are where they should be.

Beginning with the ZXRR1400C (2008 ZX14) Kawasaki made the secondaries open sooner and wider, and the end result on a drag strip running a dead stock 2008 with flies out and a dead stock 2008 with the flies in, the flies out will have no significant advantage in real world performance.

Ask Brock's or Ricky Gadsen.

* Last updated by: privateer on 6/3/2009 @ 5:32 AM *

I have an '06 flies out and the difference of going flies out was huge, monumental, stupendous! Okay enough superlatives, you get the idea. The '06 is much easier to ride fast in the twisties with flies out, abundant torque available at the slightest twist of the wrist. Flies in I always felt like I was either lugging the motor or screaming it's guts out like a 600. This is a 1400 fer sobbin out loud, it should have some stones!

Now my take on the '08 model. I rode a stock '08 back to back with my '06 and I can tell you I was impressed with the pull on the bottom from the '08. Not far behind my flies out '06 for low end steam but a bit soft on the top end. I've heard the '08s don't pull as much HP up top as the '06/'07s until you get rid of the three cat exhaust. Only real problem I saw on the stock '08 was a flat spot in the torque curve at about 3000 rpm noticeable mainly when pulling away from a dead stop. It was not as noticeable in 2nd gear and up, mainly first. I don't know for sure cause I don't own one but looking at the graphs, you can see the flat spot is history when you remove the flies on your '08, add PCIII and remap. I don't think the bike will necessarily go any faster but the low rpm throttle response will be greatly improved, fun factor goes way up. My '06 is seamless in it's flow of power, from just off idle to redline there is no sudden jump in torque and no flat spots, it just pulls.....HARD. Makes it very easy to ride where we spend most of our time but probably no faster at the drag strip. Peak HP figures are meaningless to me, it's the way the power flows that I'm interested in.

My new CBR 1000 is driving me nuts cause of all the bumps and hollows in the low end power delivery. Mainly due to emissions compliance do-dads like the ECU controlled butterflys on the exhaust and intake. It smooths out beyond 6000 so I rev the snot out of that bike to avoid the problem area. I would rather have weaker but smooth response any day than a flat spot and then sudden surge. That can make low speed corner exits highly interesting.

Kruz

So if you want to know what throttle control is check this guy out

I bet his flies are in

I'm thinkin, "IN" on that one for sure.