Uhmmm...this is Gas'd...You left out...WOT model PC are u using?You understand how the thing works.Your LAST statement(s)....about a 'borrowed map'...what does that mean?And...secondly...building a 'one off'....what is that?Every tuner has to 'build' a map...from the baseline.Factory settings if you will.And who knows what those are?The tuner's adding or subtracting...but he's only adding or subtracting from the already 'set' numbers.Zeros you know mean...NO CHANGE from factory.Those do not show you how much fuel is going in.2% increments...that's how it's added or taken...maybe even more precise now with the PC V.Trimming the fuel cells on each cylinder and each rpm(s)and ignition fire time.

"you can borrow"....you mean,like downloading from a site?Or do you mean...borrow...like copy and readjust to how you want it.They're ALL borrowed in that sense.UNLESS...the tuner KNOWS what the factory fuel values are behind those zeros(locked up in the ECU).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/9/2012 @ 7:55 PM *

Grn... YOu forgot to capitalize the Ys and Os in your opening ;)

I do agree with the "oxygen sensor per cylinder" posit... even though its probably not feasible from a production standpoint.

Okay...now I'm more confused than I was when I posted my 'response'LOL!!!!!

My interpretation of Hub's post...in a nutshell... is even though our scoots are generically constructed identically, there are
external variables that "open loop" DFI systems cant account for.

In a perfect world each cylinder would have a sensor for tracking the oxygen content of its own exaust. In this fashion
the performance of each cylinder can be more precisely controlled by having more info on how much fuel should have been dispensed during the
previous cycle.

Also i think Hub is a tad skeptical about the efficacy of downloaded maps versus editting your own through the gathering
of emprical evidence.

I think... ;)

* Last updated by: hagrid on 5/9/2012 @ 9:20 PM *

The difficult part with all this...the flows are 'constantly' changing as the throttle is applied or removed.Obviously.BUT...to get a smooth transition from one cell to another...that's the hard part...each cell is a 2% fuel amount.It doesn't sound like much...but...take it away or add it wrong...you get a losey running engine.It's not just typing in numbers on a grid and hoping it's gonna do something good.There's WAY more to it than that.These guys are experts at using intuition and experience to get a good result...along with the hard numbers they actually know will produce a certain outcome.I think Romans probably understands that more than anyone here.He's been doing mapping now for quite a while.He's very good at it.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/11/2012 @ 9:23 AM *

"Each cell is a 2% fuel amount."

It seems to me the most logical solution to that is increase the total amount of cells so the interval becomes smaller... maybe .125%?

Im still digesting your info Hub... bear with me.

I think i got it. Creating a lag in the airflow... with this clogger of a setup.
If you create restrictions in the induction side... and exaust to an extent... you can smooth out sudden changes in velocity of the air stream.
Hub... do you suppose the factory flow dynamics of say... the air filter, the diameter of the T-bodies, the exaust... all serve
to blunt the sudden changes in velocity of incoming atmosphere? By design?

"do you suppose the factory flow dynamics of say... the air filter, the diameter of the T-bodies, the exaust... all serve
to blunt the sudden changes in velocity of incoming atmosphere? By design?"

"No. More, they are handcuffed to follow that flow they created by design"

Aw hell no Hagrid!...they guessed at everything they did...there wasn't any 'match this to that' type of thinking....for instance...they went and 'handcuffed themselves to a bone head design'...you know...they had NO idea that how they were engineering things were actually not based on research or engineering experts.Maybe it'd work...maybe not.You know...kinda like painting yourself into a corner...ya...those guys are REALLY ignorant when they 'try' and design something as special and important to the motorcycling world as the zx14's have been.Or the 10's or whatever.Same with that Suzuki Busa...lucky shot.

That's one reason that replacing the stock air filter on the 14R with a 'better flowing one' doesn't get the results guys hoped it would.The bike engine produced more power keeping the stock filter IN.Guess Kawasaki got lucky there,eh?Same with the rest of the new bike.Mostly guesswork...you know...build and assemble this thing...and THEN see if it works or not.Kinda like building yer own Chopper.Those Kawasaki engineers are like...WAY in the dark ages when it comes to having an actual 'plan' of what they want.

This is good...I want to hear some more about their inabilty to be thinking ahead when they design something.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/11/2012 @ 10:18 PM *

C'mon now... YOu know thats not what i meant :)

Im riding into Cumberland today... will discuss more when i come home.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 5/12/2012 @ 5:19 AM *

Ya...I know...I'm just bs'n with Hub.GAS'D says..it's a GREAT DAY to ride....other than that...IDK shit from shinola!Hub's a smart guy...he knows a truckload about bikes and such.Probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about this stuff.Have a great ride today!

I rode my buddy's 2008 Busa yesterday...for the 80+ mile trip back from where we went.You know...that Busa really isn't a bad bike at all...I mean...I'd have to say here that his bike performed VERY NICELY...It didn't quite have the kick of the new Ninja(naturally...it shouldn't)...not quite...but dam close.He's got an Alienhead on there with a PC mapped with I assume a Brock's map...for an 08...so it may be a tad 'behind' the data of today.But she's a nice ride...The Ninja feels more 'refined'...smoother...more sure footed,but not by much.The windflow IS different between the two...the Ninja wins here...and his dash....nope...that's a lose for that one.Having to bend down at speed and try to see stuff is annoying.His shifting is not quite as slick as the 14R.But nice.Nuetral to first..the Busa wins...totally.I couldn't even tell I'd clicked it in from N.I could tell taking an 'all day' ride on his would mean having a sore butt.Yes....but not as bad as I expected.Stock seat on his.It leaned in very nicely....was very responsive...yes..held fast deep corners well.I'd have to give the win to the Ninja on this however..she drops in and lines up and all with more confidence IMO...The ride in corners is more 'secure' feeling,once you get used to weight and chassis stance of the Ninja.The tq is a bit lacking with his...the throttle-ups are a bit less dramatic...But still,overall...a fun bike to ride.Interesting really...to see the differences today.

His didn't really vibrate like I 'remembered' it way back.16K...that's what he's got on his.Suzuki definitely produced a lighter package with their Busa....his felt like mine does now...with the weight off of there.I gotta say...his felt even lighter than mine.I can see how the Busa has such a following...yes....a very fun bike.And strong.The power delivery is a bit 'slower' with his...which really surprised me.Not bad...but I could definitely feel the difference when downshifting and punching her.In every gear.Suzuki did a good job with their Busa...they did.I wouldn't trade my Ninja for one...but really,having either one would be all a guy would need to go and have a fun time.

Getting back on my bike for the few miles home from his house...I was glad I got what I did.He was totally happy with the Ninja...thought it was WAY better than my 07.He wants to get his ECU flashed...ya...that'd be cool.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/12/2012 @ 9:47 AM *