Ever go to a chiropractor? Tells you it's not the numbness in your arm, but the spinal cord that sends the signal to the arm that has the nerve damage somewhere along the line?

Call the spinal cord the brake apply is send the signal. Call the nerve damage the fork spring. You send the heavy current to the coil bind, does a wheel chatter or does a spring chatter where a tire would cushion the blow. How fast can that tire turn to cause the front end to chatter that quick?

All that jam on the front brake, I can move camera mounts with one blow at the master. That is one deep dive. Is the chatter sent up the fork or oscillate out as if the tire was out of balance the forks fly forward, then back to the exhaust pipes and tag those is that movement. It is one or the other.

Don't BAD me and avoid the answer... Yes or no,

1. Does the chatter run up the fork or...
2. ... Bang the pipe dingdango?

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Look at the tire stem. Spin the wheel. It hops like an upside down bunch of UUUUUUUUUUU's tied together, it never makes a circle if you watch the stem. That would act as as come around, hop-hop-chatter-chatter. BUTT, are you not on the brake and that is like stop the wheel from turning?

Would that hop like a pogo stick on the chirp-chirp-po-go-catch-the action? Say you stick that in your pipe an smokit. No science needed is seat down and try it yourself. Just whale on the front brake see what happens.

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Hub,

Sounds like you have something seriously wrong with your front end. Most of these 14's with the chatter is caused by bad pads and glazed/dirty rotors IMHO. Good luck with a successful solution to your problem.

I hear you, Cappy. But here is what you said:

Sounds like you have something seriously wrong with your front end.

How can I have some serious problem, I come home on the front pads, have yet to find a squeak from the pads or disc. I have no pulse at the lever. I could bet I have zero run-out like I checked the other time this issue came up.

Most of these 14's with the chatter is caused by bad pads and glazed/dirty rotors IMHO.

Then, if I thought like that, I would have to assume or take guesses like others is that if that was a glazed pad and dirty rotor, it should chatter at any brake apply. I might be wrong. I know I am not wrong about the brake pads being bad. Mine are wearing fine and not even close to the cut marks or the replacement marks shaved out of the pad. JUNK? You assume way too much even thinking my bike has a problem. You'd be the first to know how I solved a problem. Glazed means to me, your average brake user. Soft apply sends the glaze to sing some song to a dealer, who has to scrub away that glaze you mean? I don't have that problem being I brake at the last moment and hard enough to chatter the front.

Good luck with a successful solution to your problem.

I have no problem solution. What is with the assumption I have a complaint. I'm showing you it is not going to go away like a 40~55mph wobble let go of the hands. I'm showing you, that glaze is a limp hand on the lever; I've seen it for years the same squid level pedal pusher be it foot or hand. I have zero problems and need no solving. In my mind, the chatter is fixed in place as the low speed wobble is in place is the high speed tank slapper in place and there is no place for someone crying about a chatter if it has an matter of fact I expect it from being such a soft setting. Then again, everyone should be running a hard setting as if that would take it away?

I have zip-zop-no-slop here is a race ready bike, [set a code first, Bad].

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Okay okay....perhaps "we're" getting our nomenclatures mixed up.Judder is ONE THING.Chatter is another.My brakes make NO NOISE when they are applied,yet they definitely judder the front end on more aggressive apps.If I hold the lever in some...and stay constant on speed,it will "pulsate",meaning,it hits the glazed spot,then grabs again.At any appreciable speed,it's gonna feel like the front end is shaking.It's only the disc spinning at speed.You can test it by doing that at different speeds-you'll get a noticeable different "vibration" at various speeds.When I go slow,like behind a car coming to a light,3-5,anywhere in there or lower even,my front end will "slide",grab,slide,grab.I don't mean skid.I mean the rotor will grab,slip,grab,slip....VERY not cool.Frontend will also dive,release,dive,release while it's doing it's deal.The slower...the more pronounced.So I know there's a glazed spot on that set of rotors of mine.But I also can fix it by sandpapering the rotors down periodically.It's no big deal.Doesn't mean the rotor's WARPED.OR that the tire's bad.HOWEVER....I think that riding and letting this disc thing go on,especially if you use front brakes primarily,and at higher speeds,you're asking for abnormal tire wear to set up,which will most likely INCREASE the effect of the glazed rotor.So instead of having a "glazed rotor/pad" situation...you'll now have that PLUS an uneven wear pattern,which in itself will compound any strange rolling characteristics from your front tire(wiggling,shaking at certain speeds).Just my opinion guys.I'll say HUB...it's pretty cool(amazing)that you haven't experienced this deal on your bike.Especially since you use you front only to slow,stop at all speeds.You MAY have been fortunate when you first began riding your bike to actually bed the pads in correctly from the gate.And I'm really not sure at all that that has anything to do with glazing.?????And then of course,there's always the possibility that the wheel is not balanced correctly,or bearings are going south,or steering head bearings are failing....or.....If it corrects with a sandpapering...then that was it.Nothing else.If that doesn't correct it,it's got to be another thing?But I think for me,I'll paper me rotors first(and pads)before doing anything else(except maybe making sure my steering head bearings are okay and adjusted okay).Somewhere I read this....if you stop with your front brake....and HOLD the lever in while she's stopped,the place where the pads are sitting can cause a spot of unevenness to occur because the disc is hot,then it gets squeezed by sitting with brake applied.I don't know how true this is....but since reading that...it did make sense...and I never hold the lever in on the front brake after coming to a stop using the front.It wouldn't take much "squeezing" at all to slightly deform the disc surface if it was hot.You wouldn't even see it most likely.But you would probably FEEL it quite well.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 5/20/2010 @ 11:02 PM *

blue,

You can see it in my videos. I accel when I should be braking. It's called, "carry in speed" for lack of a better term. When you carry in a lot more speed, it means the corner/turn could be taken a lot quicker. So you taunt yourself you really are not moving that fast, street wise.

No car/bike will follow you in unless they have a racing background. Then again, if you want to be up front, you need to be more fearless than the next guy with the brakes. Guaranteed, no squeaks! That is why I have zip for problems, as the pads feel the same as the day I took that first ride did I carry in some-some, yum-yum speed.

Corner is coming up, WOT do I do? Deglazing Die will go, deglazing die will go, [gulp] High, ho, the dairy yo, my bike has no squeal, like someone chasing a greased pig in a pen, don't chew know, [gulp] I ho the dear me oh, I'm way too old to do dishit, gulp, here comes another corner!

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No squeal from mine either!Not a peep."too old for dis shit".....me too....who gives a chit?I'm gonna have fun on my baby till I caint anymore.Besides....EVERYONE who sees me without my helmet on says the same thing..."You ride one of those?" Ugh,yeah.What else IS there? EXCEPT...maybe THIS WOOOhaaaa! ...now THIS is what I call Carving She's a bad bitch aint she!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 5/21/2010 @ 12:03 AM *

I just came back from sending off a package. I knew this on ramp from the old 14 without flies, air cleaner is all I can remember, say as far as the last setup of the Gen1; before I threw it away maybe weeks later? Everything is turned of. I have the subs in, the 3 cats, the PAIR, the advancer. Now, I just hammered the on ramp and when you do, it dumps down like a combo of the carousel at Infineon [Sears Point], and the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. Again, I jam the throttle when I should be on the brakes.

The front end comes up in a pop and just as fast drops back down, I have to crank it over, here comes the down drop into a cavity type sweeper. Lots of compression as you crest that pop sorta. Can you imagine, I've done that with the fat jetted, open fly, gutted 4-in-1, no advancer and she just lumps along with zip for any bottom end I just felt now.

Yes, it's slower kind of, sort of. Now I'm tuning up the bike with the Tfi. Got the accel almost perfect I rather not touch it. Great power pickup with a flick of the switch. Sends that accel way past 11:1 now. It's back to reality with the 24/7 tuning of the loved one, I now hammer this off ramp to set the chatter going before I reach cement and slip all over.

Yep, there she goes. Ever so slight, then I let off, really bound the binders not as hard, but hard enough to get a little feedback coming here to tell you about that discshit is BS if I have zip for chatter on the hard binding this time was made sure I felt the springs first, discs second. I should have chattered on the heavy bind. Nothing! Yeah, like did I feel the springs wind up a tiny bit? Yes. Am I about to correlate disc to disc apply or rather spring sensation is what seems more the feedback.

BTW, the way these brakes perform, would toss me on the ground, they still work too perfect is here I am!

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/21/2010 @ 4:21 PM *

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what is chatter ??
Had a small issue with the front brakes pulsing at the lever at low speeds, great brakes but pulse the lever and getting a little worse with 10,000 klm on the clock, checked the rotors with dial, pads etc etc all good.

Went to dealer under warranty and asked the question. Kawasaki Australia has a package available that repairs this issue other front brake issues. It includes 2 rotors set of pads and all seals for both calipers plus labour to install. Myself and other 14 owners with similar issues in the area went in and they just change out the hole deal for free.
Can you guys get this it should be world wide I would think, meant to fix other similar brake problems at slow or higher speed problems

Was told that the seals in calipers didn't roll correctly when pressure was off, not allowing the piston to come back a little to prevent pads from cooking, when not in use . Light friction can cause hard spots. etc

What do you think Hub dose this sound possible or are they feeding me a good story????

Not sure if we are all talking the same thing here????

Was told that the seals in calipers didn't roll correctly when pressure was off, not allowing the piston to come back a little to prevent pads from cooking, when not in use . Light friction can cause hard spots. etc

Yes, it does sound like they are feeding you a good story!!!

I hate to blow out my fork seals just playing around with some 130km lock ups, proving a point. They need to show me how that puck moved away so fast at that speed, that they see a design issue with the Quad-seal? 4 sharp sides that would look like a square block you cut it anyplace? Not allowing how far back can it go, if the memory goes back to square? It can't move any farther back if that hard rubber is naturally moving back to square after the pressure is off.

So now, we have that square dimension. How are they about to use a different seal with the same dimensions that now rest in the machined circle, which too, is cut on 3 sides so the seal sits square. The caliper piston has that 4th square wrapped around the piston. If the seal is shaved narrower, sure, that can wobble back and forth, move away from the puck all sloppy on the float. How is that cut down seal going to keep the oil from seeping out? Should it not be tight as a drum? What is so different with this seal?

How about the seal just about wrinkles up and hardly moves out of that groove. Where can that seal move but a tiny bit. They need to show you a different part number of that piston seal. Yes, it's possible they have a better grade seal? That has to have a company name. If it is not OEM Kawi, then where is that seal made? Ask those questions.

Ask them if someone can chatter or wheel hop the front end first time out, no break-in of the pad with dics needed. Say there is less pad touching having a high spot needing grinding down. That brake chatter or initial fork dive should (((chatter))) no matter that deep brake apply, not the second, already decelerated down enough not to need so much brake pull, the chatter goes away. Fork is there, brake is there still. And still, that quad release happened so fast, the front end popped right up again. Then down again, I reapplied on the super hard hit at the lever. I felt no chatter that time.

Ask yourself what happened to the brake disc not (((chattering a second time))) if the brakes collapsed the forks once again, the brake had to bring down more speed, I'm still heading for a cement stopping transition farther down the ramp. I say, the chatter is in the spring. Someone says the chatter is in the brake apply, ethin.

The information fed to you is full of it, unless they can show that rubber is natural, super springy, faster to memory than a standard black quad ring. Hey, what member here changed the pads away from OEM? If they still chatter with a different compound, what do you think? Come to think of it, that quad ring recoiled faster than I can reapply the brake lever! How much faster do you need it if I can't get ahead of it scaring my own self?

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Correct me if I'm wrong here....but don't our calipers cause the pads to contact the disc when not applying the brake?I mean.....barely....almost not at all.You guys don't hear your pads touching when you roll the wheel off the ground?(or even forward while moving yer bike).I think they rub ever so slightly. Didn't Romans have a chatter problem or something like it?And he said he removed the pad pins and either cleaned em(the pins),or replaced em.His were making some kind of noise.I don't get any noise from mine,even with the "judder" from the rotors(guess that's what's doing it).

* Last updated by: blue07 on 5/22/2010 @ 1:51 AM *

I get your point hub, the thing is my brakes were perfect, great feel, pull you up from high speed , emergency stop, what ever you needed they were great. the only thing was a little pulsing with the lever at low speeds.
They through a bunch of freebies at me so i say stick them on, if they weren't free I would of stuck with the old set up.
My brakes had NO pulse or chatter when you used force to stop only when very lightly applied, like slightly bent rotors or hard spots.
My be Hub it is more likely a sticky piston type problem, I don't know ???. I doubt Kawa dose either big bunch of parts hoping to hit the target .
Blue I cleaned the discs, linished the pads , put a dial gauge on perfect , back together good for 100k or so then back to the pulsing then took it into Kawa
My problems my be different to everyone else.

Got to love that Tomcat blue, was that you flying it?? or you would have but they didn't have your colour!!!

Hey Ethin....I wish!Helicopters...ya...some when I was a teenager.THAT was a LOOOONG time ago in a galaxy Far Far away(it seems!).Those Russian Sukoy's have my colors...BUT....they can't match our Machines!!Hoping your brake deal is okay now,I got to reading this post and decided I'd had enough of my frontend doing virtually the same thing as yours.Hard braking...no prob.Medium,okay.SLOW moving and mildly applying....definite spots on the rotors somewhere.The slower I roll(like following in traffic),the worse she acts up when I apply stronger force.Light force going slow...she's fine.So.................I've sanded my rotors tonight inside and out.Goin out today(this morning)and see what she does.I don't think there's anything wrong with the rotors.Did you get your trip in okay?I can't remember if your said you were going soon,or later on ?It's getting VERY nice here now.Can't say however for where you're heading.Probably not bad at all though.New chain today and new tires as well.She sure runs smooth and quick with that 16/42 gearing.The tires are PilotPowers 2 CT's.So far...very nice feeling and responsive.55 profile in the rear.And I had my mechanic cut my new chain to 115 links,which will bring the wheelbase in about an inch.Gave er a good run today,open roads,cool out,nice sweepers.Man,she's handling and running better than ever!14's just rock for an old guy like me...I love my spaceship!Ride safe and fast there Ethin....my OZ brother!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 5/22/2010 @ 1:50 AM *

Geez Rome....did yer fingers ever heal back up?They be lookin mighty abused there!!!!!What the hel&'d ya do,pull those pins and stuff with yer bare hands?

Ethin,

Kawi does not have a brake recall of any part. This is customer related, not a parts flaw. You just might be your average rider, with a unique braking technique = AVERAGE. Unique in a way to say a, 'Wrinkle Type Braker" for lack of a better PhD should make a study of you, disc warp ears. Listen:

How canyon riding, street riding, no rear brake riding can I feel not a pulse in the lever? Why is blue following some lead he needs to clean some disc pad warp? I'm not pulling wheels off my vehicles to clean the pad dust on some old truck? 70K with the original pads still sounding quiet? No warp at the foot pedal either.

WOTizz UP with that? I'm pounding my IQ on the table like Stallean, oh you know the name alright. Slapping that shoe down; I want an answer!

WHY! WHY!

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Hope you guys don't mind me chiming in with what happened to me... I had a front end that shook quite badly when I applied the brakes and inspection showed one rotor to have a dark line appearing (on the outside of the rotor). This condition had just crept up and got to the point where I felt unsafe.

With the front up in the air, spinning the front wheel showed a tight spot, so I just ordered new rotors and pads. I ordered Revolution Rotors and EBC pads to suit. When these arrived, I removed the old stuff and found that one pad only seemed to be doing most of the work. One pad was worn badly and the rest seemed to be OK. I then had the calipers inspected by a mobile bike mechanic and he suggested that we replace the dust seals as there was no fluid leaking and then put all the new gear in. He did clean the pistons and insert new dust seals, assuring me that everything would be fine.

Given that the new rotors were 5mm and not 4.5mm he suggested we leave the anti-rattle plates out. Fair call until the pads wear down a bit and then we'll put them back in. After the system was bled and everything double checked, I took it for a ride and there was an immediate improvement, but I still couldn't tell if it was better or worse than stock, except to say that when I braked I felt a very slight vibration at very low speed but I think this is due to the cut pattern in the rotors. I bedded them in in a somewhat similar fashion to what was suggested by EBC and now everything feels great with good feel except for that slight juddering at very low speed, 20km/h or less when bringing it to a stop.

I don't have a problem with the juddering as it appears to be getting slightly better as the pads wear in and it's only at very slow speed that I feel it and even though braking performance seems to be very good, I don't think I'll replace these rotors with the same type again. Maybe either Galfer or Metalgear next time. Don't know if this is of any use to anyone but that's what just happened to me.

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I'm going to place myself in the middle, compile and objective brake video. What I have as far as stopping the bike, I know I cooked or threw heat in the pads. Once that bike peeled off, I flew into those turns without anything ahead of me. You can hear the discs (((ringing))) on the instant heat = Shutdown. Then, I'll find some pinkie on the lever at some stop light/sign? I'll slow-mo it, see if I can pick up a pulse.

Again, we are talking about a disc crunched on a paper gasket, ask it to run true like a surface plate at some machine shop? I didn't think so. That plate wiggling on some circus clown's stick in the air, balancing the wobble out of it, I can see the pads being pushed in; as the plate comes around, right?

That is what you feel as far as tHAT trick, squeezing out all the movement. Now you feel the liquid push on your lever, that plate comes around. Do you see how sensitive that pedal is on my side, watching you attach your lever double handed?

WOT?????????????????? DIE SAY????

Die laughing is what I said, I can't keep it in >

* Last updated by: Hub on 5/22/2010 @ 10:07 AM *

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Well shi# howdy!I I I I sanded my rotors last night.Not a perfect job mind you-I was using 50 grit-that shit works pretty good but the paper backing aint worth crap....meaning-the outside surface of both rotors got sanded good...nice and clean.The inside however,was probably NOT quite as good cause of the angle of sanding and the wheel spokes and such...and trying to work with the shitty sandpaper.But anywho.....my results today?..........NO JUDDER.NO pulsing.No nothing weird.Just a smooth braking experience.That's all folks!(next time I'll use some emory cloth-much easier to hold onto and sand smooth with).My opinion....NOT the pads.Not warping.Dirty,glazed rotors,that's my take on it.Guess we could beat it to death,come up with "if" this or that all day long.I know what to do for mine next time.I must say though...the mention of "lines" in the disc face....mine was developing that as well,but you couldn't really see it UNTIL the top surface started sanding off.Maybe something to that?I dunno.Mine had two lines developing around the rotor.They weren't like deep grooves or anything,but they were there.My pads are Galfer HH sintered.I looked on another brake site....they said"do not use sintered pads if your bike did not come with sintered pads"...I didn't know that.Anyone KNOW if our bikes are factory installed sintered pads?Couse,that STILL wouldn't explain why the FACTORY setup begins to judder on some bikes(mine included).Is it possible I didn't bed them in right at the beginning,and set the rotors up for glazing...cause this is my second set of pads...yet I've never sanded the rotors before.One more thing.When I installed fresh Galfer pads-the rotors "acted" as if they were fine.For a while.Then the shaking on braking again started.Now it's not shaking.......wonder for how long?

* Last updated by: blue07 on 5/22/2010 @ 2:26 PM *

I'm out on an errand once again; here I am within minutes of input, dismounting off the bike. I hesitated, then gas'd it, hesitated then said, what the hell...

The first bite I took hard as usual and here came the shutter or chatter. With the lift on hesitation a few times, this upset my one line going in. Now I'm all screwed up with the entry. My second hit went over a large thick layered letter(s) painted across the exit ramp tarmac.

Well, needless to say things happening so fast, my second hit was over that painted letter. I heard a screech. I wish the camera was at that locked tire. Now the front, ever so slight, drops the bike down, meaning, the front end is collapsing towards a fork lock.

When I heard the screech, felt the front go, I released the lever, hammered the lever again and again, the test was scotched. What I'm telling you now is that when I chopped the brake the second time on the paint, she was a hard dive and so smooth, it must have slid over the letter before the screech warmed up the locked wheel, moving the steering hing, eventually. Smoothest 2nd clamp-down so far!

Go figure ~ Not one judder! Could not point at the forks or the disc dive, having the front end literally static for a spit second on the skate of ice [capades] antics.

I wanna throw that apology at you know I'm trying.

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Oh yeah, and when I stopped at my parking spot, I could roll slow enough with my pinkie, drag the lever to a stop so I could feel a pu..... So I could feel a pul... So I can come back one more time, laugh my ass off < I have a freak bike > No pulse ear is piss is you off, don't it?

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Sounds like your front end is the bench mark Hub, shame you don't live near by would love you to of ridden it to see what you thought anyway all good now, ya got a hate those painted numbers and letters and stuff on the road, in the wet or dry , hate the thought of having to brake really hard across them buggers.
Glad yours is back up to scratch blue, may deteriorate after time.
tteksep, Kawasaki Aus are replacing your front brakes for this issue for you , for free I believe on 2008 models onwards you should check with dealer if still under warranty.

US planes are getting so expensive to buy and maintain, with ever shrinking production numbers, those inferior Russian planes in mass numbers may be more effective in the end.

You have a major point Ethin!Course,Russia's buying Iranian oil,and selling Nuclear Reactor parts to them(along with their missle units and ak47's),so they shouldn't have any shortage problems!

Sounds like your front end is the bench mark Hub, shame you don't live near by would love you to of ridden it to see what you thought

It would be nice to have the luxury to fly and ride. I know that (((deep dive))) well. I think this is WOT we are discussing as in bench mark. I've seen disc brake problems almost from inception on motorcycles. This is very common among brake parts that warp and parts that don't. Pick a year. Pick a disc thickness. Pick a pad. Pick a piston, give or take a few in a caliper now. Same situation as if nothing has changed.

I can show you the same with 3 sets of tires being changed. Not one link has missed the tooth when swapping rubber. That chain has zip for a high spot. Is this bench mark? No. Same goes with the front pinkie winkie-winkie.

That's my girl!

<< You don't think the old lady heard that, do you?

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blue07 said:
"I sanded my rotors last night......my results today?..........NO JUDDER.NO pulsing.No nothing weird.Just a smooth braking experience."

Good the hear blue, good job!

* Last updated by: Captain on 5/23/2010 @ 3:53 AM *