Gotta 2015 zx14, want to run the brocks alien head full exhaust and it appears there are two power commanders available, what is the best one? one is "EX" and one is not, or is it possible to not have one at all?

i don't know about the PC EX but if yo want to go without a PC, that has been done. Never tried that myself. I'd suggest you use a PC to optimize the performance benefits of the pipe.

---

You want the PCV. Power Commander has a lot of downloadable maps for different engine and pipe combinations if that's all you are doing. If you're going to add a PC you really need to have your ECU reflashed to unleash everything.

CBlast, Romans, and Ivan's can all do a reflash, but they are not all the same. Read about how each approaches doing the reflash and form your own opinion. CBlast and Romans change fuel and timing in the ECU, Ivan does the fuel with a PC

---

Well, without going into an ECU theory lecture, the ECU in the R is 32 bit,
shouldn't that be able to handle most street bikes, thus not needing a PCV ?

maybe if you are going to different tracks for racing a PCV MIGHT come in to play,
but shouldn't the ECU be able to adjust and correct most things, if flashed properly ?

---

The main concern is whether or not the engine will run too lean. Considering Kaw's default mapping is damn near ridiculously rich there's no reason to run a different map for that reason. For performance, yes some tuning is better.

What is Tuning
Tuning is a methodical approach to optimizing performance. Tuning is done by skilled professionals. Measuring results of changes, unless in a controlled environment is meaningless. Butt dyno doesn't count for shit. I laugh every time someone says "man I added a pipe and now the bike is so much faster". Professionals can use track times (either lap times, or ETs) or dyno, preferably both to achieve optimal results.

You have 3 basic choices:
a) custom tuning, this means for every adjustment, change, etc. your bike is put on a dyno and comparatively adjusted for maximum performance. Theoretically 100% performance optimization, but also very expensive, time consuming, etc.
b) cookie cutter, this means a map developed for a similar bike is installed on your bike. This is any map that is sent to you like Ivan, or CBlast, or Roman. Generally you can expect >98% performance optimization. You may even get lucky and for whatever reason produce more power (1-2 hp) than the original bike the map was developed on
c) guess work, this is stuff you make, or other people make. This includes butt dyno bullshit and non-methodical testing. My recommendation is avoid this segment altogether.

One specific note: Many people use PCV with the auto tune add-on. While this maintains AFR automatically, it does not maintain "custom tuning" status. As running conditions are altered, fuel mappings may change therefore what may have been a custom tuned map becomes "cookie cutter" even with auto tune.

So what does this mean to me?

You have 3 basic choices:
a) add the pipe, do not adjust fuel maps
b) add the pipe, add a PCV or other pigtail, [optionally] have ECU flashed that doesn't adjust fuel maps (like Ivan's)
c) add the pipe, have ECU flashed that adjust fuel maps (like CBlast and Romans)

If all you're doing is adding a pipe and changing an air filter and other minor modificaitons, just get the ECU reflashed by CBlast or Romans. CBlast's results are proven beyond a doubt, many people here run it (just sent my ECU off to him today as a matter of fact), many people have posted their dyno results. Romans I'm sure too also offers a fine product, as to which is better I don't know. CBlast has definitely spent a significant amount of time optimizing what he refers to as "smoothing", that as I understand it pertains to throttle response throughout the rpm range and throttle positions. With CBlast, it's basiclaly a guarantee not only will you get >98% peak power, but you will also get buttery smoooth throttle response.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 3/14/2015 @ 7:55 PM *

He asked about the PC models.You don't want to get the EX version.That's the street version.You want the Race version(if you decide to go PC mapping).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/14/2015 @ 9:33 PM *

You want the Race version(if you decide to go PC mapping).

Ah yes, now I remeber that tidbit of info. That's right. Go with the race PCV. IDK what the dif is but I was told that was the one to get. I'm sure neither one is street legal but neither is that exhasut.

Many people use PCV with the auto tune add-on. While this maintains AFR automatically, it does not maintain "custom tuning" status. As running conditions are altered, fuel mappings may change therefore what may have been a custom tuned map becomes "cookie cutter" even with auto tune.

You would have to accept the trims before your map changed and it is not a big deal to save the old map on the PC or in your computer. I have my cookie cutter map on disk. True, things like altitude and ambient temps will alter the trims autotune suggests. I have not been able to tell the dif in cold or hot temps with the autotune trims I accepted. There is a fairly elaborate process to making a map with autotune but it should be a very good map for your bike if done correctly(i.e. maintain the best AFR for performance). If you had a good custom tune, autotune shouldn't recommend much change at all in the fuel values. I plan to explore this process a lot more this summer if I'm confident it can be done quick enough to not end up in jail.

---

I think it's the first 2 first rows. Why? Cali get in line with traffic so both lines are going to be way too rich for street while sitting in traffic. So CARB was wise to see it's that simple stay out of both lines, and both far left lanes an stay the fuck to the right you slow ass drivers were was I?

So in race pcv, there is the option to squirt all rows and the X is EXcept rows 1&2. And that did say, 'we bleed off your factory O2?' And then it said, use this 200 screen so you can see the 02 number but can't do something with the 200 you could with the pcv and can't with the EX?

1. Limited in column tuning.
2. Limited in accessory options.
3. Limited in options when the accessory is bought.

EX = Some Bells.
PCV = All the Whistles.

---

Right.EX...Can't adjust fueling below 5K.(shadowed out).For Cali bikes and Harleys.That 5k may have been 25 hundred...but I think it was 5k.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/15/2015 @ 11:01 AM *

I have an Alienhead 2 and Cblast's flash. No power commander. I couldn't be happier.

You would have to accept the trims before your map changed and it is not a big deal to save the old map on the PC or in your computer. I have my cookie cutter map on disk. True, things like altitude and ambient temps will alter the trims autotune suggests. I have not been able to tell the dif in cold or hot temps with the autotune trims I accepted. There is a fairly elaborate process to making a map with autotune but it should be a very good map for your bike if done correctly(i.e. maintain the best AFR for performance). If you had a good custom tune, autotune shouldn't recommend much change at all in the fuel values. I plan to explore this process a lot more this summer if I'm confident it can be done quick enough to not end up in jail.

World class ass can tell the difference between two pipes.
J Streetsquid can tell one is louder than the other, and thinks they can feel it's faster.

World class ass can tell the difference in 1 lb of air pressure.
J Streetsquid thinks they can but they can't.

World class ass is performance honed.
J Streetsquid (and sqriends) believes their ass is performance honed. The reality is J and sqriends' asses are only finely honed by marketeers.

Well, without going into an ECU theory lecture

I'll take the lecture. Lets hear it. I'm finished with the mechanical end of it. For no other reason I am reading those dusty C and C++ books and on and on teach yourself html anshit. I'm after the basics and how it works? I'm not after the tuning, I'm after basic diagnostics.

I have a perfectly running ECU. It flashes and now codes to a C39 = ECU DOA in the mailbox.

Where do I begin? I do not think a flash blows out units if that's how you program stuff in the first place. You just moved something inside mechanically vs the numbers sent in off the keystrokes. We are stuck with the resistors/diodes/capacitors the manu sent us and they are stuck with the parts as per designed.

And that says the manu is handcuffed to base10 or how magnetism can be used mechanically via these integrated chips magnetically flip flopping and gating as in machine code the computer understands. You on the type can fluff up a keystroke and the math calc is simply going to flip 1 of 10 ways [for argument sake] and not set the computer back to 0000-0000 is the computer starts at 0.

Are we talking about software parts we can understand is a capacitor can hold huge amounts of time saved, but if the flip to flop is read at 0000-0001 that is not at 0 but at 1 and you cannot touch hot to hot or 5v to 5v and flip the flop. Same as saying I'm going to run a wire off the ground leg off the battery post and ground it to the bike... I did not flop a flip either.

So if anyone is listening... Only your flipped flop knows for sure, show me the software dept? I'm done mechanically and closed the hood. I now need to open the trunk for memory saved. Where is it? What is it? I'll get to this assbackwords word by abstracted word for word.

Save me/us the time WATTsayEEE?

---

"It flashes and now codes to a C39 = ECU DOA in the mailbox"..you're saying this is what's up with it now?Code 39...that's....nevermind,I'll look it up.

Okay,got it.All pins are intact,yes?All connections with can are solid?No grease or anything on that ECU pin end?(I imagine you already checked all this anyway);)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/15/2015 @ 12:16 PM *

Ok, let me ask another question, if the PC is so good, why doesn't MotoGP use it, or why don't manufactures
have something similar on their bikes ? or do they ? I haven't seen anything like that between the injectors,
but I may be wrong ....

The PC can't do many things that the flash can do, so you need the flash anyways ....

Ok flame away !!!

---

why doesn't MotoGP use it,

IDK. I would have assumed they did. Maybe they have the technology to flash like what has only recently come into public hands. Damned sure they aren't using stock fueling. They do something to tune the bike. Idon't know what they have but we have PCs and bazzaz and other fuel modules...or f;lash.

why don't manufactures
have something similar on their bikes ?

Because it is not street legal and it would be bad PR to openly disclose that they support the avocation of derestricting their product for use on public roads.

---

One more coment about PC v stock fueling with aftermarket exhaust. I did not notice a huge change in power between any of the 3 maps I tried. To me, it is mainly a safety issue. If the stock fueling is rich enough, there should be no danger of engine damage with the slightly increased flow of a full system. But--I do not know for sure the stock mapping is rich enough everywhere so I feel better with a PC. The pipe DOES make a difference in top end power. No loss at low rpm. The PC and Autotune did smooth out the lowend throttle response which is enough reason alone for me to have the stuff on the bike. Besides that, I like fiddling with stuff and expect t o learn a lot more about tuning through use of the DJ products I have on the bike.

---

There are advantages AND disadvantages to both CBlast and Ivan's flashes.

CBlast - advantage: all changes made in ECU, no need for a PC, cheaper overall cost, works great
disadvantage: any other changes made to bike necessitate returning ECU for another reflash

Ivan's - advantage: all changes made in ECU except fueling, if make other performance mods are made it's a simple
matter of loading a new map with a laptop, also Ivan turns cooling fans on sooner and eliminates
fuel cut on closed throttle, can also run multiple PC maps for power or enconomy
disadvantge: cost, installation and setup of PC which is not hard but does take time

Both Cblast and Ivan do a great job, just a difference in philosophy on how to approach performance upgrades.

You should also consider air induction block off plates to stop the decel popping, certain combinations of pipes and fueling make the problem better or worse, doesn't hurt anything but is annoying as hell!

---

I plan to explore this process a lot more this summer if I'm confident it can be done quick enough to not end up in jail.

Jail could be a possibility. 4th Gear 11,500 your covering some ground quickly. Choose your spots carefully.

BROCKS AND POWER COMMANDER

We have all seen what that setup can run. Matched up with ECU Flash will definitely get the job done.

The PC can't do many things that the flash can do, so you need the flash anyways ....Ok flame away !!!

Cara Can't imagine anyone flaming you for speaking the truth. 100% Accurate.

PCV was designed for fueling mods only. Dyno-Jet Easy to use software makes it possible for all tuners to match your bikes fueling to your exact mod list. Would be hard to find a bike shop that owns a dyno without this software.

ECU Flash Can do All Of the above and is capable of so much more. But, Not many shops Flash ECU's with your bike on the Dyno. More and More are getting into it but still, Not Many

Where the ECU Flash falls short is in the assumption that one Flash Fits the fueling for "All Bikes". How have we come to believe this ?

For years it has been widely accepted Different Pipes, Slip-ons, Full Pipes, with different mods, diff elevations require different fueling to make perfect. Now for some reason the masses have come to believe this constant is no longer a constant. That hurts the ole Noodle, the science has not changed.

So, Why or how have the masses been led to believe this is true could even be possible. Magic Pill Maybe ?

Simply put, like in the past get your bikeflashed. Head to the Dyno for tweeking to make perfect. Just like you used to. Nothing has changed. If you are lucky your tuner has the Flashing software. If not PCV will get the job done.

Like posted above "Cookie Cutter" will get you close. Perfect is and always was up to you.

Hub I've read a lot of what you've said about your trying to understand ECUs and how they work. You've said you've hit a brick wall with trying to understand how signal levels are processed by the ECU. You're understanding is pretty good, and most likely NO ONE here (and I mean NO ONE...no offense anyone) here has any real, actual better understanding of how it all really works. Where you're at is getting into the area of electrical and software engineering.

We know a few things. We know you can't take a Pentium, stick two wires onto it somehow, plug it into a wall socket and it'll just start working. Same with an ECU, just can hook it up to a battery charger and expect it to do anything but smoke, bubble, and smell really bad.

Hardware address lines are used to communicate with the processor. Digital devices (two digital chips) can talk to each other fairly directly, specifically depending on if they are designed to do so or not. In some cases, hardware and software may need engineered so that the two digital devices can understand each other. It all just depends on how the chips are engineered.

As far as analog signaling, this is handled through digital and analog conversions. I'm sure you've heard or seen DAC. It's common with digital stereo equipment. Less common we hear about DAC's brother, ADC. So in our bikes there are sensors that are analog. Theses sensors are wired to an ADC. This ACD is wired to the ECU's processor (directly or indirectly). So this is how an ECU processor understands some sensor's line voltage.

sensor sends anolog voltage signals to ADC. ADC converts this voltage into digital information and sends it to processor. Processor makes comparison, then communicates with devices as necessary to make adjustments until analog sensor is sending desired voltages.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 3/15/2015 @ 6:06 PM *

if the PC is so good, why doesn't MotoGP use it, or why don't manufactures
have something similar on their bikes ? or do they ?

Maybe we need basic computerbike theory? I have to say yes.
0. One thing every chip does inside a black box show me the box is it starts at 0.
1. We are stuck with 5v into the pc/ecu/gp kind of handcuffed to the base10.
2. Base10 is magnetically speaking a + and 4++++ is one side of the coin flip.
3. The negative side has a - and 4---- legs on that computer chip and it is how the skeleton looks of a 555 timer. As if you laid that over a magnetic field and could see it. The wiring gets more complex.
4. So with 3 variables, choose the 4th door or what the 4th leg does?
5. Those 4 pins are down to 6 or 3 on each side so leg for leg; the one chip can achieve endless moves.
6. This places the chip maker into being handcuffed to the way magnetism works in base10 or 10 pin-outs.
7. That says 4 input and 4 output legs with an option to ground RAM with a flip of a flop or a 5v plugin.
8. Imagine the clocks, temp guns, digital thermometers all working 1's and 0's times machine speak.
9. Binary+ if 0 is -OFF and 1 is ON+ are we not at a complete circle are the cycles fixed to that 555 timer? Yes in a most absolute way, yes. Agree or disagree?

I haven't seen anything like that between the injectors,
but I may be wrong

Well, I don't know the in's and out's of what they can and can't mess with. Say they can change sprockets and if you can read octal/decimal/ascii tables, no touchie. Just toggle your numbers in like a pcv sends you a preset number to the gear tables and sure, change those tables. But to change the OEM map that is in the ECU? No, no can do one program thrown at it, save your 'comments.' < PUN!

The PC can't do many things that the flash can do, so you need the flash anyways

Say the factory set the bike for best all around. Say the flash software is not even close to how many programs are running that were not found. So the factory pulled up so many files like the pcv popups. They gave you access to the gear to rpm input numbers you are set at when the pc comes for your specific bike. This is so your 6 gears worth of maps can fall into a stock setting to a new map setting. That is any map cut and pasted into the next gear map and all that map moving from one gear to the other. A flash does not have that option.
I'd throw combo after combo at each gear and watch the afr bounce all over or the machine math smoothed it out? How it runs I'll soon find out. Can't do that with flash alone. Will that screw up the flash? I forget what Smoke was idling at, but it was sure fat. Pig wise I could step those ratios down to lean out the idle. I could not do that... flash alone without a lot of flashing. I'll stick with a pc and smash the crystals in the pc. Don't worry. Something like 65,000 times you can wrinkle a memory chip before it deteriorates.

---

@HUB..."So I have an imaginary ecu with a c39"...that's what I thought;)

Hub I've read a lot of what you've said about your trying to understand ECUs and how they work. You've said you've hit a brick wall with trying to understand how signal levels are processed by the ECU.

Correct, Vic. I think I have a working handle on the mechanical part of it or close enough for me to stop and move on to the soft side. The one roadblock was right in front of my face and that was me seeing UPSguy struggle with ground. I saw something completely different, could not pinpoint it as to who triggered it, but the wiring was too simple a move on his end. Then on my end, whole do we shithell I could not stop wit the theory it was working like a 556 timer now like you were saying, use two of them.

I just needed that one move and that solved that hardware side wise. I've seen a few ways to attack the binary count. That's not it. I am after one basic move after the other. So conceptually, 0 needs to be reset on that flashed c39 kind of ECU. WATTelse could it be? Think of what they are saying and you see the toggling begin down the chain that connects each link.

There is now a round of old words I can recall about the on/off and 1 and 0 scenario I've been grinding everyone down with is watt and the what is the next step in theory? So mechanically, I have to have my binary set to 0 to start the computer. I've heard that over and over was the read, and now boom! My gates are not set at 0000. My gate has an open channel(?) An open sector(?). Here comes a new set of words to step by and for the ECU to follow the gates and pop the c39? Where is that gate? It can't be the analog, can't be the battery, can't be 5v if it sent the sig to the dash = Phantom Code?

No, it has to be the binary flips in a saved flop state. I am saved somewhere in a file or sector or, see the new roadblock? First I know to zero out my RAM is flip it to ground and empty the saved to 0000 all over again. Something in the type and saved flash; sent a flip to flop open? My capacitor can save a huge amount and tick down in that 60mhz cycle for a long time.

So like an old analog TV say, they say not to mess with the TV even sitting [unplugged] in the garage for years is that huge condenser about to unload on you is you are the ground path now! So, I take that capacitor as a mechanical part and set a 0000-0001 sitting there and you wrote,

"{
who dee do dee due debt on the wallet is on the 0001 is close the ecu down and use 1 as the starting number:]

/* he laughs */
}?'

That, said in a way was how I look at how the new code was typed and the numbers spelled out that code. Could be written this way? So since I have the hardware recognized, I now have to understand a new milestone are the basics of coding. "Shift Registry" is an old word I've heard before, brought that out of the stepping process and now my 1 is shifted to 0 and I think I understand this part somewhat.

And that swaps back to the hardware and I read the magnetic move opposite the software? Shift registry moves right to left or up and down or both use a chip to move X and Y moves the 1? So 0 is right to left, 1 swaps from top to bottom, I am changing a 1 to an 0 in the software how mechanically I set the 1's and 0's if I concentrate on one cell block? See the 0 being swapped for a 1?

My bathroom reader this time around are my c and c++ books for key words moving the mechanical around? I find that frozen flipper not in a reset position but flopped back magnetically and keeps [the 1] there?... is find it! Find that sector? Sector is an old word but place it somewhere? Make it step like the hardware.

Diagnosis is the final destination. I don't want to modify it, don't want to sell it, just want a better working theory so I can walk up to the bike and look someplace else the ECU is working, it's not the box, see a wire or sensor next, etc.

---

Hub - that's the thing. There is no correlation between the C or C++ that is written by a software engineer and what you will see on your scopes. They kind of deal with the hardware the same way you understand it. They are given specifications on where and how to address things, but they don't necessarily know how those things are engineered. Generally, the applications a software engineer write are to interpret what one chip is saying to another one. So you have a mitsubishi ECU, but inside that ECU are chips made by a dozen manufactures. This is where software and other specialized chips help these chips all talk to each other.

Most likely we cannot understand what the ECU is doing digitally unless the chips are reverse engineered, or Mitsubishi/Kaw releases specifications in which the chips work. The things the ECU processor is doing is all relative to everything else in the system.

As far as registers in a processor, these are specific things. Registers are used to hold data to perform calculations with, perform calculations on, memory locations, execution instructions, etc. when people talk about bits and a processor, they are talking about the size of the registers and the processors ability to address them.

For example, I may load 0001 into register A, load 0010 into register B, then ADD A and B and tell it to put the result in register C. Then I can PUSH C into the stack, and this will store 0011 in the stack. I can then load 1000 into register A, load 0011 into register B, ADD A and B and put the result in register C, then push C onto the stack. Then I can POP the stack into register A, so now A is 0011, then I can POP the stack into register B, so now B is 1011. Then I can subtract those into register C, now C = 1000. This just goes on endlessly. What does all this mean? Well it's only relative to what it means. 1000 binary is 8 decimal. But I may not be using 8 as a numerical value. I may be using that value to track the state of something. For example, maybe there's a sequence of events, and every step in this sequence C has to start at 0001, then progress to 0010 and so on. This kind of crap is happening millions, billions, probably even trillions of times a second in some computer systems.

One of my favorite programming languages from college is called Assembly language. It is used to more or less directly manipulate a processor. I vaguely remember , but for example I could PUSH, POP, MOV, things into and out of the processor registers and stack. C and C++ have commands which can do the same thing (most programming languages do to some extent). I also took C and C++.

Here's what happens when a processor is powered on. The processor excecutes IIRC microcode. THis microcode I believe is in the chip itself. Once executed, the microcode now instructs the processor to look elsewhere for what to do next. It might be set to read an area of flash memory or from some other device, such as the "flash" memory area of the ECU. This tells the processor int he ECU to tell all the things wired up to it to power up and turn the motorcycle on.

A while ago I was talking about interrupts (there was a conversation about how PCV "interupts" the ECU). ECU ADCs have access to the ECU processor via hardware address lines. So what will happen is when the ADC has something it needs to tell the processor, it'll send a Interrupt Service Request, telling the processor that it needs to look at hardware address line it's on. The processor will eventually see that service request, when it does it'll allow the communication to take place. Depending on how the chips are engineered, the ADC might have addressable space the processor can look at, or the ADC may have put it's information somewhere else the processor can access. There's no one certain way this happens, it all just depends on the chips that are used and how closely they are able to work with each other.

Hub, I ALWAYS enjoy reading your commentary, even when I only understand about half of it. I am truly glad you didn't leave the forum!

Hub and Vic, as an engineer I am enjoying, and learning from your posts, I am serious when I say please continue.
I learned just enough programming in school to know I shouldn't be doing it!!!

---

ADC was an interesting read. 18 tracks and not 4? Seems that was an obvious evolution eventually. If that's how I understand the cleaner signal in and more of them. Impressive. I somewhat see what you're saying. The older the c books the more antique the moves so I get a grasp of the concepts.

So it says I need a compiler program to work the coding. I'm back to, I need to make a compiler so I can knock more bin files out of the ECU is it? Where is the gear file? It has the gps so for sure there has to be /*notes*/ if this is how you still code for 'comments'. I'm slowly working the software, not the compiler yet.

It's like buying a breadboard. It would not show me how I got this far as in, why buy the latest complier? I don't need it, same as I didn't need a physical breadboard for the timer and the ticking guts inside that puppy.

Vic, I can see the moves you're saying. I just need it to get to my side of the think so when I speak the code, you can sing along with it as you're seeing I have observed the basic process of that ticker.

Port-Monostable. There was no read in between the lines reading about this. I could throw a dart at it and say this was a big clue how fast the spit was, how I could not see RAM saved in such a timed event.
Port-Astable. A read in between the lines is a stable 5v wire to use.
Port-Time delay. This is, 'your manual has been timed out' and that was one more, well look key [move] right there and screamed capacitor bleed every time I hit OFF on the tower?

Now, how could I un-time delay that little written code and re-time it who cares. I want to duplicate it with a written code? So where do I find the program that popped up the code and walk it backwards so I pop the manual back on the clock? Is that possible?

---