The goal is to make the most powerful running engine for you,

My goal is to get maximum power without ruining the motorcycle's 'streetability'

KINDA CONTRADICKIVE

To all my valued customers

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I cannot believe I butchered my bike the way it looks:
Bigass air cleaners, two sets of injector bodies I keep swapping; 3 pipe sets ~one wrapped header ~one gutted muffler; modified sensor on the fly under the seat; 5 permanent camera mounts ~one removable camount; 3 ~golf tees; IAP added air plumbing; a vacuum gauge; 5 toggles ~setting various codes/cuttings; a timing window; an extension cord puts out 8.4v for the video cam battery.

Ivan put me all up to dis. Chasing his sadass retardata was to answer my own question. I must be retarded!

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Once bitten twice shy? No, I think Jeffo is the real deal. Jeffo could have a background in programming/gamer? Tech savvy on the math numbers? He can read numbers? Either that, or he's selling Ivan's map ...LOL

I'm Kidding!!!!

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http://www.bugmanweb.com/gsxr/gsxrindex.html Dis ear is wear out I smooth the move, make that 3wV sign sticks out and UP their ass they lie down, go to sleep. Banner yet wave is, "slowly I turned" < Take the belly out of the line > The hook is about to take a deep (6) right in the lip of laughter is LAPiss those is clowns!

Read: PAIR and/or TRE is the myth continues and did he correct anything is I have no clue what page his PAIR pop is did he heat up the ambient going inn so no pop is either, it's so balanced, glow plug my ambient before entering.

Steps... Walk the practical events and that resistor selection is a supreme crack cup! PICKa code! My Dixie is full of color bands I'm going to get that 4th is 5th is gear map is, "Piss ON MY BUY Sickill Seat."

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Either that, or he's selling Ivan's map ...LOL

I know you're only kidding Hub but if a guy was dishonest he could prolly make a few bucks doing just that. It's a shame but making money is so easy these days if you'll just sell your soul to the devil. Would you rather be an honest beggar or a Wall Street banker i.e. thief in a pin stripe suit?

Kruz

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For what it is worth I'll throw my 2 cents in here...

For those that don't know me I hack ECUs. That is I download their software, disassemble it, find all the fuel, ignition, etc. maps so that they can be reprogrammed (flashed). Most my experience is with ECUs made by Denso such as all the Suzukis, newer Yamahas, ZX-6. The Zx-10 and 14 ecus are made by Mitsubishi which I've only recently been able to get into. My perspective is what is actually going on inside the ECU as seen in the software.

TRE or Timing Retard Eliminator. There is a good reason it has that name. The Suzuki Denso ECUs (GSXR, Busa) have multiple Groups of ignition maps and a table that lets you assign the groups by gear. The '06 GXSR 1000 for instance is set up as

Gear_ 1 2 3 4 5 6
Group 1 1 2 2 3 3

Of these maps Group 3 was the least restrictive or retarded. Putting a TRE on the bike and faking the ECU into 5th gear had the effect of forcing the ECU to use the least retarded map in all gears. Also on these Denso units there are tables for rev limit, fuel or ignition, by gear. The top speed limiter was actually a sixth gear rpm limiter set to a value that would equal 186 mph in 6th gear. Placing the bike in 5th all the time also defeated the top speed limiter.

Pretty Cool. One little resistor would do all that. Of course as is often said there is no free lunch. Besides ignition maps by gear and rev limits by gear there are many other characteristics of the bike that are effected by gear position such as secondary throttle maps, quick throttle enrichment, ram air compensation etc. Running 5th all the time improves some aspects but makes others worse. The consensus is that the net effect is positive, at least for the Suzukis.

Now I'm not sure which was the first bike they successfully tried it on but you can bet their next move was to see which other bikes it would work on. And of course they could point to the bikes it did work on to convince people that it does something. But a closer look at the software of various bikes shows some interesting things. First off a TRE is useless on a GSXR600. The difference in the ignition maps just aren't there. Also the newer Busa and GSXR1k use a different ignition map setup of 2 2 2 2 2 3 which means 5th gear is no longer the less retarded map and if you put the bike in 5th all the time you will actually lose 6th gear performance.

So how does this apply to the 14? Well like I said I just got into it so I'm still working my way through the code but I can tell you there are no ignition maps by gear that I have found yet. There are secondary throttle maps by gear. Time will tell what else I find but the end result will be being able to pick and chose which maps or features you want instead of having to take the bad with the good. I have been reflashing the '08 gsxr 1000s to use the group 3 ignition maps in all gears but otherwise use the correct gear maps for everything else. They report a noticeable increase of power in the top end of 6th. Funny thing is the difference between the two ignition map groups is all in the midrange. Why the increase? They chucked their TREs after the flash and our now running the correct 6th gear maps and correct ram air compensation in 6th.

To sum up I believe that originally the TRE was a good product but that they basically tried to push it on too many bikes that it really doesn't benefit and that their whole engineering scheme comes down to lets stick it on and see what it does with out any real knowledge of what all is happening when you fake out the gears. Now that we can flash the exact changes we want into these ECUs the TRE or other fakeouts like faking the water temp to enrich the fuel for nitrous etc. are obsolete. Of course I may be bias. Having a flash hammer in your back pocket does tend to make every problem look like a nail.

* Last updated by: RidgeRacer on 9/16/2009 @ 12:58 PM *

Good stuff Ridgeracer, very informative. Keep us updated on any progress you make hacking the 14 ECU, also any differences between 06/07 and 08/09 ECUs. I'm thinking of a simple plug in that could open the flies rapidly on the '06/'07s. Are you looking at commercial applications of this knowledge?

Look Hub, we finally have someone who can not only hack the code in the abstract but also speaks English!

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/16/2009 @ 1:26 PM *

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Bad in black wrote:

Big K lookey what you went and started
.......finally some action on here lol.

Kruz

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break other things in the process

Can you be more specific?

hmmmmm....still waiting

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/16/2009 @ 1:32 PM *

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Good stuff Ridgeracer, very informative. Keep us updated on any progress you make hacking the 14 ECU, also any differences between 06/07 and 08/09 ECUs. I'm thinking of a simple plug in that could open the flies rapidly on the '06/'07s. Are you looking at commercial applications of this knowledge?

At this point I'm only been able to get into the 06/07. Both Denso and Mitsubishi switched from the 7052 CPU to the more powerful M32196 CPU around '07. This means the two use different software and flashing methods. We have figured out the GenII Busa which uses the newer CPU so it is only a matter of time before we get the 08/09 14 and 10 too but for now I only have the 06/07 to look at. So far I've successfully flashed an ECU with +800 rpm rev limits and no speed limiter.

This will be available commercially. When I first started doing this on the ZX-12 3 years ago I was doing this as a hobby. I've been a software/hardware engineer for the last 20+ years and owned a ZX-12. At first I was putting it all in the public domain, schematics, software, etc. but saw that other people were taking my work and making money with it. Then this spring I got laid off from my job and decided (not actually much of a choice) to make the leap and try to actually make a living combining my love of motorcycles with my engineering skills.

Eventually I hope to offer a product that will allow people to tune their bikes using their stock ecu and a USB cable like the cars guys have been doing for 10 years. In the mean time people mail me their ECUs and I flash them and send them back. This works well for rev limits and speed restriction, things like that but obviously you can't tune fuel by email. It is more for the engine builders or pro drag teams who can actually use the extra revs at this point.

I can tell you there are no ignition maps by gear that I have found yet. There are secondary throttle maps by gear.

Cool! It's RR! Ridge, I've produced practically all the codes in the FSM. I have 4 permanent 'on the fly' wired up codes. I can pull over and add another batch of code combos. I'm tapping the low and high cuts wit ha flick of a switch. I'd like to see which map plots to the toggled sensor? How far off in degrees is it when it backs off, because I have a window of opportunity, where I count off enough time for the map switching and I see no advance curve change statically. Math wise and what map scheduling is another question and can you walk that map or is the math machine just hitting the map under load. You do know, you disable the IAP, she 1Atmo's the math. So, to me, the backups are the digitals, the analog are another group? Something like that?

a noticeable increase of power in the top end of 6th. Funny thing is the difference between the two ignition map groups is all in the midrange. Why the increase? They chucked their TREs after the flash and our now running the correct 6th gear maps and correct ram air compensation in 6th.

If we are discussing the GPS, this is more the limiter group with the "j-box" or junctions like you take the tank off and you see that group of grounds on the frame. That is one group of grounds that balance the 186 limiter. You pick the right sensor, that unlocks the 186 out of the loop. No gear in play but sort of a short. You pull both wires off and not ground them with a resistor, they still default to that one group and dismiss the GPS all together. How could that engine keep running? It simply does not need the speed or GPS or any other sensors short is the pun and that is sans the spark stick or any two wire sensor that has no backup like the crank sensor or the ECU. I think the map will hit that group if there is ram or not. You WOT the wafer in the IAP, that will hit the same map group to compensate for a wide open gulp.
Are you not in a pushing ram effect at say 160 with a lot of throttle left? You WOT the wafer, will that think ram or the WOT plot is on? Might be WOT maps but not ram effect unless you can prove to me otherwise when I hammer a, "Reggie Pridmore" on that Mustang once I clear that motor home; bring that and the ignition window is covered ram, covered retard, covered a-N, covered D-J and that is all that meet in the middle "midrange."

To sum up I believe that originally the TRE was a good product but that they basically tried to push it on too many bikes that it really doesn't benefit and that their whole engineering scheme comes down to lets stick it on and see what it does with out any real knowledge of what all is happening when you fake out the gears. Now that we can flash the exact changes we want into these ECUs the TRE or other fakeouts like faking the water temp to enrich the fuel for nitrous etc. are obsolete.

I'm trying to swallow that one, RR. I need a 42° bottle of brew to keep moving the adam's apple turn over my gear map, water map, mid map. I have to bring up that FSM practical event of say the Busa. It says below what it says. I would have to take a run to a dealer, read the manuals that have the GPS gear, see if the default runs the locked(6) or say you might be looking at an ECU without a shift window? Therefore no GPS? See, I'd have to find that trivia where Honda switches from "open loop" to "closed loop" with their "CBR 1100XX."
Funny you should mention the water table. Yesterday with a dead engine, no choke system but a slight wrist pulled back, I flip a switch, hear the fan come on; wait for the dash to flash; hit the starter and she just about fouled the plugs this is a rich fella.

1999 Hayabusa FSM: c31 = "Gear position signal is fixed to 6th gear"

Watt happens we have the same setup? I can un-flash mine, people think what the hell is he doing with all that shit toggling?

"Phantom Builder!" Flash before your eyes thinks I got you covered, RidgeRacer! Equal passion = We bee "Flash'inn" our rides.

"Flash'INN Builder" Ate Chore Service!

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Kruz read the post by RidgeRacer again I think he covered it. Kruz I wouldn't be worried about whats going on inside the ECU until you get the basic stuff down like suspension setup and tire pressure.

* Last updated by: willidx4 on 9/17/2009 @ 7:28 AM *

This will be available commercially. When I first started doing this on the ZX-12 3 years ago I was doing this as a hobby. I've been a software/hardware engineer for the last 20+ years and owned a ZX-12. At first I was putting it all in the public domain, schematics, software, etc. but saw that other people were taking my work and making money with it. Then this spring I got laid off from my job and decided (not actually much of a choice) to make the leap and try to actually make a living combining my love of motorcycles with my engineering skills.

Way cool, I'm diggin it and wish you the best of luck in your endeavor RidgeRacer! It might not be as lucrative at first but I imagine you're going to enjoy this a whole lot more than working for Microsoft. I'm definietely looking forward to see what you can come up with.

Please feel free to jump into any of our discussions, it's great to have the intelligent and informed commentary you've provided.

Kruz

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TRE or Timing Retard Eliminator. There is a good reason it has that name.

Gear_ 1 2 3 4 5 6
Group 1 1 2 2 3 3

Of these maps Group 3 was the least restrictive or retarded.

I would think group would be with the 5th/6th. Therefore 5th gear falls in that group. 6th is called the backup in the FSM. You could say at this point of group, Ivan's tre falls in that group. Makes sense if you step with the group concept. I'm not disputing it. I'm working it.

Also on these Denso units there are tables for rev limit, fuel or ignition, by gear. The top speed limiter was actually a sixth gear rpm limiter set to a value that would equal 186 mph in 6th gear. Placing the bike in 5th all the time also defeated the top speed limiter.

If I 3wV (missing signal/open/short) the GPS, I am in group 3. I don't need to be in 5th to exceed 186 mph. Unless you show me the 5th gear map exceeds the rev limiter of 6th's map in hack mode.

Pretty Cool. One little resistor would do all that.

Or a disconnect or smash a sensor so the signal is lost, you revert to the, "backup' 2 other ways. No difference, basically.

The consensus is that the net effect is positive, at least for the Suzukis.

Well wait. The down side is a richer fuel limp like the water map, adds the quicker advance curve and now are we limp? I know I had a hard time starting the bike hacked flipping the water table on. I know I shut it off and she lit up fine, waiting for the code to clear on the dash. What, RR, do the Busa's GPS geared "fuel" maps look like as opposed to the, "fail-safe" of the Busa's maps? Same? Is the fail-safe set richer? I know not as rich as the temp sensor if we are discussing the 14.

First off a TRE is useless on a GSXR600. The difference in the ignition maps just aren't there. Also the newer Busa and GSXR1k use a different ignition map setup of 2 2 2 2 2 3 which means 5th gear is no longer the less retarded map and if you put the bike in 5th all the time you will actually lose 6th gear performance.

I think you just contradicted yourself? If group is 3 for 6th gear, then the hack is on for all gears as with group 3-3 no matter the gear. Once hacked, every gear is set to 6th advance curve, no? Besides, you rev [w/o a hack] in 5th gear, you will hit the rev limiter being all stock mode, no? You hit 6th you hit the limiter too. If you are hacked, the limiter is disabled, you are free to explore 200 mph plus and exceed the rpm limiter in all gears. The spark is disabled to rat-tat-tat at the analog limit of that loop. You break out of the limiter loop, you 3wV a wire, the unit, or short the wire with a resistor.

To sum up I believe that originally the TRE was a good product but that they basically tried to push it on too many bikes that it really doesn't benefit and that their whole engineering scheme comes down to lets stick it on and see what it does with out any real knowledge of what all is happening when you fake out the gears.

The speed sensor, GPS, fuel pump and spark sticks are all tied in to do one thing. Limit the mph. I believe the concept is with the GPS equipped bikes. What other limiters used to save the engine from revving to float, may have the same concept but without the GPS in play. Now they may tie-in the subs and the air cleaner flapper door concepts to the ignition curve. Either way, the bikes are generic in a lot of ways where the limp is still the other map scheduling. All I can say at this point is that "N" is one ride. N with "(6)" in play is another ride and it changes the bike a touch to the thumbs down side if you want to feel a down side to hacking to a limp.

I may have contradicted myself being I nave no Busa wire farting time as much as playing with the 14. So, if you say that you can take any Busa down the track in 5th gear and float the valves, the limiter is missing in 5th gear all in stock configuration, then that sure is a mis-shift in 5th about to eat a lot of heads. Make sense?

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Hi guys, and especially Ridge Racer

I am going to run my 08 Zx 14 on the salt at Bonneville late August 2010 at the BUB event.

I have lined up an eddy current dyno about 75 miles away, and am going to have a custom fuel map done on a Power Commander 5 to suit the Tsukigi Racing 4 into 1 and other minor changes.

Obviously I need to somehow bypass or eliminate the top speed limiter.

I would also like to be able to find out what the stock ignition map actually is. I know the initial timing is 10 degrees BTDC, but I don't know what the advance and total timing are.

Having degreed the cams recently, I know that the inlet valve starts to open at 41 degrees BTDC, so I am guessing based on past experience with other engines that advance is probably about 20 degrees, for total timing advance at full advance of say 30 degrees BTDC, and full advance coming in by say maybe 4,000 rpm, but I am just guessing.

with my various vintage race engines I usaully try to limit total adavance to the least the engine will run well with, and get the ignition to total timing advance as early as possible. With modern cam design and modern combustion chamber design, I would guess that a properly designed water cooled engine would be happy at even less advance, maybe 26, 27 degrees total timing on a relatively high compression engine. I would think that going to say 36 degrees BTDC total timing would be a recipe for a bunch of detonatation, and that the full fuel charge wouldn't even have time to fill the cylinder.....

the Kawasaki factory ZX 14 manual is pretty much useless, no info re timing maps.

so, I want to bypass or eliminate the top speed limiter safely and in a sensible manner, and short of cracking the ECU I have been looking at the MSD SB6 programable ignition for the ZX 14, but without info concerning the base maps advance and total timing, the MSD unit looks like an expensive tool that would be essentially useless without the necessary info concerning the stock ignition mapping.

so, what is my solution for ignition timing and removal of the top speed limiter? Is cracking the ECU and reflashing it likely to be possible before sumnmer 2010?

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 12/29/2009 @ 11:22 PM *

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so, what is my solution for ignition timing and removal of the top speed limiter?

I remember reading in the Brock diaries that the guys had to grind off one of the teeth so the sending unit did not count properly. Speedo-healer is supposed to do the same thing. The Dyno Jet Ignition Module won't do what you need ?

I would think that going to say 36 degrees BTDC total timing would be a recipe for a bunch of detonatation,

It is more ear than a specific number. From detonation, roll back 2° and run it.

... so, what is my solution for ignition timing and removal of the top speed limiter?

I have video that when I toggled codes, the advance moves to the same full locked position either analog sent or in the digital. You might try moving the square wave with an adjustable advancer. See if that helps while waiting for Ridge to complete the 14's peek inside the ECU to the better way to set the timing advance.

* Last updated by: Hub on 12/30/2009 @ 8:55 AM *

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I am actually working on the 08 ZX-14 this week. I'm pretty sure I have it figured out. I'm just waiting for a couple test ECUs from ebay. We are planning on having the software available in the first couple of months of 2010.

In the mean time here is the timing map from the 06/07 zx-14. The 08 may be slightly different but most likely they are the same. BTW the ECU has individual ignition maps for each cylinder but they are all identical.

The TRE must be working because my bike says it is stuck in 6th gear........

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BTW the ECU has individual ignition maps for each cylinder but they are all identical. I'm going to take one of my missteps and say that each cylinder having it's own map is the 'sequential fire' system. Each cylinder being 'in sequence' is able to fire the next cylinder. Not the slower starting old style, which I believe was called, 'multi-fire.' Here, the spark lit off on fire stroke and one on the exhaust stroke. Think, dual points. Digitally with the memory saved, cranking is within seconds, or a tiny milli more speed on fire up. That is my understanding of some of many maps used and the evolution of ignition firing systems. Waste your minutes I will is just did.

Ivan, where are you? My rear tire is going to sing out a dud or spank you, darling. First spank is no code present. Second spank is run that GPS whackiss package is still working that sensor all these years is coming to getcha!

Yes, Ivan, I am calling you out! One dollar says I call your 006 and raise you an 008 is to say; out Horse IS Piss Is your hackiss package against my elixir mixer. And we are talking 'tone ponies,' not half a horse is piss on that!

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Hub, I'm going to give you a stroke on this one but Ivan's going to do my ZX-10. Akro Race Pipe, TRE to disable the K.I.M.S. system, PeaSee3, Ignition Module and his map. He's claiming over 175 rear wheel with this setup and smooooooooth!

* Last updated by: Kruz on 1/13/2010 @ 1:58 PM *

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Oh, but I am going to stroke you one is your first post on this thread.

Reference is [paraphrased] from a factory service manual describing the FI features.

Fail-Safe ~ Backup System:

"When any abnormality is detected by the self-diagnosis function, running capability is secured by making use of the numerical values of a situation preset in advance in the simulated program map.' 'The [system] is provided with a fail-safe to secure a MINIMUM running capability even when there is any trouble in the system."

Meaning, the numerical numbers limp the system safe is step down the tune. Why would you tre up is preset the de-tune. That is why I keep mentioning that the tune is there, but it's not all there.
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Reference is [paraphrased] from an on line dictionary:

tre·son (trzn)
n.
1. Violation of allegiance toward one's ECU or sovereign ping, especially the betrayal of one's wire harness by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies the, ATMO's.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence the factory did not give you every last bit for said year is trickle down HP you come back in a few years we step up the pup a little more you buy another worlds fastest.

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