I already know turbo would be better because it never needs to be refilled.

Nitrous is a bit cheaper. I estimate a nice system and a progressive controller might be had for under 2 grand. Maybe as low as 1000 if I go with a DynoTune system and forgo the controller for a while.

Question #1 Dry or wet?
Dry nitrous is 100% N2o spray, bike is mapped to add fuel in the T-bodies via increased injector volume.
Wet Nitrus is N20 that sprays premixed with proper proportion of fuel.

Pro/Con: Dry system v wet installed to the ZX-14?

(many more questions to come.)

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/19/2013 @ 10:45 AM *

Main PRO for a wet system, you dont need to run 2 different maps since the extra fuel is coming from the nitrous kit.

Wet kits are a lot more involved, and you need to make sure you dont get any type of puddling with the extra fuel you are spraying. You probably cant just fog the airbox, you should probably run 4 separate spray nozzles, 1 for each throttle body.

Down side to wet, more stuff to go wrong. If one nozzle clogs, or if the solenoid doesnt open, you go extremely lean and you will pop your motor.

IIRC, I ran the Muzzy Dry Nitrous kit for about 2 years. My NA map was only 4whp more than my Nitrous Map with the nitrous off. So I just ran my nitrous map all the time. It only added more fuel at 100% throttle, and only above 5k rpms. So besides that, it was identical to my NA map.

Me personally, its been since 2004 when I had a Wet nitrous kit on a car, all my cars since then have been turbo, OR a dry nitrous kit. And the only nitrous ive ran on a motorcycle has been Dry as well.

Got a Bikeland thread going and I am getting pretty much the same story. Most are recommending dry unless I am going for major hp increase. A wet system seems more reliable for the greater difference in AFR requirements of high boost.

Down side to wet, more stuff to go wrong. If one nozzle clogs, or if the solenoid doesnt open, you go extremely lean and you will pop your motor.

I know very little about this but couldn't those same things happen with dry nitrous?

My NA map was only 4whp more than my Nitrous Map with the nitrous off. So I just ran my nitrous map all the time.

Speaking of running NOS v NA, Question #2: would a spray bar obstruct the NA flow? A spraybar seems the best way to do dry and probably the only way to go with wet. I would primarily be running the bike NA, however so I would not want to reduce NA performance for the sake of the rare use of a NOS.

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/21/2013 @ 8:35 PM *

Down side to wet, more stuff to go wrong. If one nozzle clogs, or if the solenoid doesnt open, you go extremely lean and you will pop your motor.

but couldn't those same things happen with dry nitrous?

When a big power NOS system is totally relying on the Extra fuel to keep a cool AFR and the fuel goes missing ????

When running Dry your already mapped for it. If solenoid does not open, bottle runs low, or to cold, you run Rich no biggy. Lots more to it but running thirty forty shot you will be fine.

On a Dry system, you are relying on the PC5 to add fuel, just like you do every day you start your bike, the fuel is already programmed into the map. On a Wet system, the fuel is coming from a 2nd source(fuel solenoid) so if that solenoid doesnt open for some reason, your map isnt setup for nitrous, so you get nitrous, but no fuel, and you go boom.

On a dry nitrous kit, if the solenoid doesnt open, you are just rich if you are only running 1 map, like I was, thats why I tested how much power I was loosing by running the nitrous map, without any nitrous. I was down about 4whp due to how rich it was.

The spray bar is only about the diameter of a Pencil. And it sits up at the very top of the air box (on my kit) there is no way you are going to lose even .01 hp with that bar in there.

When running Dry your already mapped for it. If solenoid does not open, bottle runs low, or to cold, you run Rich no biggy. Lots more to it but running thirty forty shot you will be fine.

I think I will be going with dry.

I want a system that will boost more than 30-40 hp though. I'm thinking more like 80 shot, at least. I wouldn't start off boosting that high but if I'm going to do this, I want to get something that I can grow into a bit as long as it is affordable.

The spray bar is only about the diameter of a Pencil. And it sits up at the very top of the air box (on my kit) there is no way you are going to lose even .01 hp with that bar in there.

What spray bar do you have / recommend?

I really think the Spyder looks cool but it actually hangs down into the duct. I would not want even a slight obstruction like that for naturally aspirated operation, right?

The Adams spray bar hangs overhead. It shoots right down the center of the duct. It does hang down a couple inches and maybe cause some turbulence but it doesn't seem like it would obstruct.

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/22/2013 @ 9:36 PM *

Between those, I really like the Spyder one. To me the Adams looks more bulky. To me, I dont see the Spyder spray bar as an obstruction. I think you will lose more NA speed from the extra dead weight you are going to be adding to the bike, with the hoses and solenoids, brackets and bottles, compared to those 1/8th inch little tubes.

I had the Muzzy bar, but it only has 2 spray nozzles that fog the whole box, the ones you are posting, id consider better since they spray all 4 throttle bodies individually.

No matter what kit you install, after you use it, NA will feel SLOW as shit. lol

I was running a 50whp shot, it was fun, but refilling those tiny nitrous bottles all the time blows.

* Last updated by: Kolk1 on 6/23/2013 @ 7:43 PM *

Between those, I really like the Spyder one. To me the Adams looks more bulky.

They prolly weigh about the same. I think the Spyder may be an ounce or two heavier is my guess. Far as the nozzle positioning, I saw a pic of a Spyder with nozzles that looked like they were fabbed fron some bent metal tubes. You prolly could make nozzles to shoot however you want them to.

The Spyder install looks like it was done by drilling a hole in the to[p of the airbox to fasten the spray bar.

The Adams is all billet. I'm sure the Spyder is too except the tubes would be steel, prolly. The Adams fastens to the stock screw holes which is nice.

Now look at this Adams ZX-10 system. A lot more to it than meets the eye. Looks a lot more obstructive than the installed photo above. I really would rather not have all that crap cluttering up my airbox.

Thanks for your thoughts. That is why I am asking. Schnitz told me neither one inhibits NA to any degree. According to him, NA comes almost entirely from the sides, not from above.

I was running a 50whp shot, it was fun, but refilling those tiny nitrous bottles all the time blows.

Was it necessary to keep the bottle any certain temperature for use? that's question #3.

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/23/2013 @ 11:18 PM *

You dont "have" to keep them at a certain Temperature, BUT nitrous expands as its heated up, a cold bottle will have less pressure, less pressure = less horsepower. To get up to the optimum 1000psi you should have the bottle at, unless 100% full, and on a very very hot day, you wont hit 1000psi. Unless the bottles are black and you park in the sun, then maybe. That being said ALWAYS run a pressure gauge.

That being said, I filled my own bottles off a 10lb bottle. So I just had the shop fill the 10lb, then I bled the 10lb into the small ones. I would Freeze the motorcycle bottle, and then heat up the 10lb bottle to around 1000-1100psi. Then fill the small bottle off the big one. Then when it was time to go out and have some fun, I would heat up the small bottle as needed. You can do this with a bottle heater OR I just filled a bucket up of steaming hot water from our sink(our water heater is turned up probably too high lol). Rest the bottle in the hot water, and just keep an eye on it. As you have less and less nitrous in your bottle, it will take longer to heat. A fresh 10lb bottle should only need to be in hot water for like 1 minute or so.

I like that spyder kit more and more. You could also slightly bend those tube to hit more into the center of the throttle body, but at the same time, you dont want to freeze the center bar and possibly make it stick.

* Last updated by: Kolk1 on 6/24/2013 @ 7:01 PM *

I like that spyder kit more and more.

I like that spyder kit more and more.

Me too. now I am thinking that is the best way to go for low weight and least obstructing. Dynotune makes a 'copy" called the Black Widow.

I think the Dyno Tune NOS with Black Widow is how I will go if I get started on this project before winter. I know of one guy who kept the DynoTune bottles and brackets but chjanged the hoses and solenoid. It seems like a fun system. Good performance enhancement. One guy at Bikeland reports 177 whp going to 220 whp with the DynoTune system. GUess the bottom line is how much N2o you are willing to spray. A NOS is an NOs. The gas is what doe sit.

As far as bottle temp, they have bottle heaters, and you can get pressure switches so they automatically turn on and off to keep the bottle temp correct. You wire them up to the bike. So no matter how long you are out, they are always ready. Unless you leave your bike turned off for a couple hours, then the heater wont be on and the pressure will drop, but as soon as you start the bike, they would kick back on. I just never bought one for my bike, I had a larger version in my car for my 15lb bottle, worked great.

First item, $119, automatic bottle heater.
http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodlist.asp?idcategory=15

* Last updated by: Kolk1 on 6/25/2013 @ 7:35 AM *

I just never bought one for my bike, I had a larger version in my car for my 15lb bottle, worked great.

I'm a little skeptical that a bike charging system would handle a warmer. Maybe you would need one that got hot very fast and that would take a lot of power. I have watched a vid about these heater blankets though. Neat idea.

well i'll be damned. Guess I was wrong.

http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=55

I really like that Dyno Tune website. I think I am going with their dual bottle Black widow spray bar set up. There is a ton of other really cool junk i will love to add..including bottle warmer.

If I get a two bottle system, how difficult would it be to include a third bottle under the seat cowl. I can get a 2.5 lb under there if I hollow out the passenger seat.

I think a 2.5 would fit under the seat just fine if you cut it out. Honestly if you were to do that, and put a heater on the 2.5, would you still run the smaller side tanks? Carrying around 4.5lbs of nitrous seems a little over kill, and the hose setup Y'ing off to 3 bottles would be a lot of extra tubing as well.

I almost just bought a tailbag, and then bought the biggest bottle that would fit in the bag, and strap it to the back seat. Then it looks normal, and no permanent mods to the seat. Just have the bag over hang a little bit so you can poke a hole in the bottom of the bag to run the hose.

Just do what my friends said to do, and put a 10lb bottle in a back pack, and run a hose. lol

I was going to do a bag like this, with the biggest bottle I could fit in it. LOL

Honestly if you were to do that, and put a heater on the 2.5, would you still run the smaller side tanks?

IDK? I heard that the two 1 lb bottles that come with the DynoTune system are good for about 25 seconds of boost. That would probably take care of my needs for the most part but if I'm on a long sport riding day....might be nice to be able to take along a third bottle. Or just go with bigger external bottles. Or maybe a 5 pounder under the seat and none on the outside.

I guess it depends a lot on how the popo react to seeing bottles on my bike. If I get stopped with empty bottles and they start asking questions, maybe a stealthy hidden bottle is the best way to go after that. Skip the poser stage altogether. I must admit, the intrigue with this stuff is quite a novelty. I would use the extra power now and then but I just think NOS is cool.

Questio #4
I'm wondering about progressive controllers. Do I need one right away? What things do they protect against? Can I use N2o carefully and bypass the need for added protection of a progressive controller? I mean, I certainly have missed a gear before and hit the limiter. Hit the limitter for an instant plenty of times between shifts. I heard that is a bad thing to do on N2o.

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/30/2013 @ 2:05 PM *

I like where this thread is going. I am cooking something up too...

Bringing this thread back up.

Any updates from anyone.

I was contemplating running a 30-40 dry shot for just a track only instance. I am debating on running something somewhat hidden or just saying screw it and running it with the dynotune twin smaller bottles.

I have a 55 litre givi top case on the back, I could easily hide a huge bottle in that if I really wanted to......

LOL Thanks for bring it back. I have a DynoTune twin bottle system waiting to go on. I need to make some adapters to fit the bottle brackets how I want them on the bike. I'll show pics but this is going to be a few weeks. I have to make up some other brackets for other junk on the tail of the bike before I can start to think too much about the nitrous brackets.

My NOS will be without a spray bar for now. The lines just screw into the bulkhead doors. After that, spraybar and then progressive controller. All depends on what and when I can afford. Main thing is I got the basic NOS. Bought if off of Somefun. It got him over the 200 mph benchmark with his gen1 ZX-14. It was installed as I described my initial setup will be.

Rook any progress ?

Afraid not. I have the oil reservoir for the Ohlins mounted and now have started on the damping control bracket. You can check outthe latest pics here. A bottle will hang under the tail fairing behind the Ohlins control on each side.

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=D927BC1D-CB56-756F-A7BABC71603B48E8 

I might put the NOS off for a while so I can ride the bike. Might not be until early fall. However, a Romans flash won't take long to acomplish! I plan to ride with the current map, then try just your map you sent me, then go to all out flash. ...so be in touch soon.

I'm skimming and speed reading here but I haven't seen anyone mention upgrading valve springs. Did I miss something?

It hasn't been talked about here.

Question #5: Do I have to upgrade valve springs for a 70 shot or less?

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/27/2015 @ 4:17 AM *

The answer is YES. I have seen personally seen valves damaged and engines wrecked on a 40 shot. Stock springs are simply not up to the task. PERIOD.

Rook there have been many motors in that Gen 1 Bike fail due to timing. IMO 32.5 Is Way To Much for Boost or Nos. You will read over and over, "Run the motor Rich" for these set ups. The belief is extra fueling keeps the pistons cool letting the motor live. When in actual fact Gasoline has a Piss Poor latent heat of vaporisation affect. The extra fuel is not what's saving you.

What is really happening is the Extra fuel is slowing down the flame front. Thus using fuel to retard the timing in a sense. Max compression stroke usually meant to occur 5 to 15 degrees after top dead center. With the increased dynamic compression from the Nos or Boost your timing is pushed back to less than 5. Max compression at top dead center is Boom. So we blame pistons springs etc. Rebuild do it again. UGH !

For my own Gen 1 Bike I pulled the WOT throttle timing. Over Boosted a All stock Motor for three full years. Ran 10 lbs and a leaner AFR. She lives today. To many say impossible,,,, Well I'm doing it again in the 14R. Told me Max was 4lbs of Boost, I went 6lbs. Today going to 8lbs. My blow up coming. 320 hp ALL STOCK.

Now with Current ECU flashes on the sceen guys have Ramped up Timing Again for small gains and huge Risk.

Kawi pulled timing in the 14R down to 30 degrees at wide open throttle. We flashers Ramped Timing back up to pick up 2 hp and Dyno Bragging Rights.

So the flash alone pics up 4 hp, 6 to 7hp with timing advanced. Now we are riding the wire. Get some bad Gas ? This Boggles the mind.

Fact, with regards to the 14R, this new bike does not need much work.

But,,, if you're going to spray the bike you better NOT Have a Flashed ECU or my bet is you blow up,,,
Unless, of course you Slow Down That Flame Front And Run Rich AFR. Which costs horsePower,,, Timing pulled cost hp,, so Most won't do it, Vicious circle.

So in short I hope this info helps some of you.

Yes change the springs Always good insurance.

OK, bottles still going on, lines getting plummed, maybe a spraybar. When the time comes, maybe I'll do a 15-20 shot if you guys give the green light on that. Somefun did a small shot of nitrous from this system I have here in front of me on his gen1 and he didn't blow up. IDK if he had a flash at that time or not.

Romans, I linked this question regarding flask/nitrous to the Romans Flash thread.

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=C7E75527-1372-66AE-3B161D1B39C67F71&page=17&searchTerm=Romans%20Flash#422

HD valve springs go in ASAP. I imagine the camshafts and whole head have to com out to do that. Maybe that will be my winter project this year. I want to ride the bike this summer.

QUESTION #6: Is there anything else I should replace in there while I'm at it? Rods, Crankshaft? How much will this cost?

QUESTION #6: Is there anything else I should replace in there while I'm at it? Rods, Crankshaft? How much will this cost?

Stock rods are good for a small shot. There's no reason to disturb the crank unless you want to have a builder plasti-gauge and determine which color bearings you need for a fresh set. Replace the timing chain and guides when the head comes off. I would go ahead and replace valve stem seals and obviously make sure your valve adjustments are in order.