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Thread: Beware the thread killer

Created on: 03/22/15 04:14 AM

Replies: 32

VicThing


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Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 4:14 AM

Ever wonder why threading a bolt seems kind of crunchy? Ever strip threads and not really understand why? Bolt won't start threading easily? This is mainly for newer riders, but it might also be informative to seasoned riders as well. I mainly will speak of bolts, but consider this can apply to any type of threaded fastener.

Sometimes bolts don't seem to thread cleanly
Beware the thread killer. This is a bolt which has either been damaged, deformed, or otherwise flawed. Sometimes a flake of aluminum will break off and stick to a steel bolt. Sometimes it might be thread lock which was not cleaned up adequately. In this case, removing the fastener may have already damaged the threads slightly. This really becomes and issue if you have 8 bolts and randomly insert them.

Sometimes the threads have become untrue due to rubbing against something, like during shipping or handling. Sometimes it's visually obvious, sometimes it's not. If you exert too much force to tighten a bolt and it's a thread killer, you're probably gonna have a bad day.

Here's some steps to help make sure you don't kill your threads
1) Inspect bolts visually, clear obstructions as needed.
2) Use a fingernail as a mock thread, running the bolts thread across your fingernail feeling for parts of the thread that aren't smooth. - Be aware that any scraping or resistance may indicate damaged thread(s)
- This can be useful for clearing small shavings and other obstructions
3) Inspect bolt hole visually, look for damaged threads, debris, metal flakes, etc.
- Clear obstructions (Google is a great resource)
- Blow out shavings and other loose debris with compressed air (always use safety glasses)
4) Proceed to follow the initial hand tightening, hand tool, torque wrench sequence
- follow service manual specifications for torque values, sequence, lubrication, thread lock, etc.

I see or feel an issue, how what do I do?
There's a variety of techniques I've used over the years. In the case of a chip of aluminum stuck to the threads, I've used a precision screwdriver to pick it out. I've used files, wire wheels, taps, etc. to polish out flaws or blemishes. Attempt to correct the issues. Always gingerly test your repair, in this case good enough isn't good enough. It's either correct or incorrect in this case. If you cannot effect repair of the bolt, replace it.

What brought this up
I recently bought a second set of rims for my bike. I want them to be ready to swap out as my tires need replaced, and track days (hopefully). At any rate, I bought brake rotors and all the stuff to outfit each set of rims. All this of course, 2nd hand, and much of it from different people and different bikes.

Last night I was installing the front rim's brake rotors. I ran into a thread killer and used the techniques here to identify the issue and effect repair. Had I went on and tightened it anyway, I know 100% this would've destroyed the bolt holes thread. It would've never torqued. Why you ask? In this case the location of the burr caused by the damaged thread is pivotal. Not only is the obstruction cutting and damaging the bolt hole's threads, the shavings created by this are now also adding obstructions to tightening and loosening. It's a perfect storm.

At the base of the bolt's thread was the worst burr. This one alone would've probably stripped out the threads itself. The bolt just did not want to start threading like the rest of them, and I didn't attempt to force it. They way the burr had formed, it was very difficult to see. Only using the fingernail thread check did I find the damaged thread areas that needed repair. I repaired the tips burr, took a few times with the wire wheel, checked, repeat until correct. Thread a bit further, I found what I thought may be another issue was. I basically ended up polishing the entire thread are of the bolt, just to ensure not only would it tighten correctly but loosen correctly later.

Hope people find this helpful. I read about people stripping bolts sometimes, and a lot of the times they don't know why. In some of these cases, it was probably a thread killer and they never knew it.

If you have tips to add, please do. For example, did you know acetone is helpful for breaking down dried thread locker?


* Last updated by: VicThing on 3/22/2015 @ 4:19 AM *

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 5:10 AM

Try lining the bolt up correctly at the getgo.

"Sometimes the threads have become untrue due to rubbing against something, like during shipping or handling"...this happens to a securely fastened bolt does it?Do tell.
"This really becomes and issue if you have 8 bolts and randomly insert them".
You sure you don't want ta ask one of these guys to come over and assemble yer parts for ya?Sounds like yer pretty well fuckin up yer fasteners on yer bike there.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/22/2015 @ 5:29 AM *

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jimmymac


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 6:12 AM

If you really mess up a bolt or stud, just grind the bad part off.



Let's roll

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VicThing


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 6:53 AM

Grn buddy, this stuff is way over your head. Don't even try to figure it out. Just stick to your bubblegum wad with the supercharger on it.

Wow Grn I just actually read your whole post. Damn..you're a flat out idiot.


* Last updated by: VicThing on 3/22/2015 @ 7:23 AM *

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Rook


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 7:22 AM

Try lining the bolt up correctly at the getgo.

I learned a cool trick for doing this when I was kid. Place the nut on the tip of the bolt, turn it counter1clockwise as though you were removing it. You will feel a small click when the nut threads drop squarely into the bolt threads. Then it is safe to turn the nut without crossing the threads. This neat little mech's trick also works for bolts that thread into parts like the engine case or frame. It works for any threaded parts. I do it every time I engage threads and it never has failed me.

This really becomes and issue if you have 8 bolts and randomly insert them

I've sometimes mark my bolts so that they can be matched up to the same holes they came out of when I put them back in. I haven't gotten anal enough to do this all the time. I suppose it's not a bad idea.

did you know acetone is helpful for breaking down dried thread locker?

Nope. Good tip. What I've been doing is just leave the dried LokTite on the threads. It seems to work a second time without needing to apply more. You think dried thread locking agent could damage threads when the bolt is put back in? I know it's recommended that it be removed from both parts prior to reusing the bolt but I never have. It is a little scary ...not knowing if the threads are damaged or if it's just old lockTite. So far, no problems.

Definitely, if you feel a bolt inexplicably stick, STOP and find out what problem is.

There is such thing as self locking threads. Those will feel very tight almost immediately. The nuts on your sprocket have these threads. There are a few other parts like the rear shock pivots that have these threads. You can tell by the locking blades in the threads at the bottom of the nut. My Carrazzeria sprocket studs have a self locking thread such as what is used in aerospace parts. You would swear the threads were the wrong pitch for the nuts but that's just the way they are. No shearing of metal but they sure go on hard. Scary.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 7:33 AM

"You think dried thread locking agent could damage threads when the bolt is put back in?"...no.As you said...leave it...it'll help secure the bolt for next time.I mean, are you(anyone)gonna try and clean the bolt holes?I don't think so. You won't need to unless ya crossthread somethin.There's no reason that any of these bolts should need replacement if installed correctly.If it's NOT threading in BY HAND,something isn't right.(considering the bolt tip threads are clean and undamaged).Overtightening will also damage the bolt hole threads.Bodywork bolts and all should never be cranked down hard.That's why they have those plastic washers on there.A teensy dab of non-permanent locking agent will hold it nicely if anyone's worried about em backing out.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/22/2015 @ 7:39 AM *

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Hub


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 8:24 AM

There are thread files that have 8 thread pitches on them. The file is square with 4 sides and half up the file is the one pitch, then flip the file and you have the next size pitch, so between mm and std, you can address the high point stopper and not take a steel brush to the whole thread family.

Instead of the steel brush taking down material along the whole thread group, the file is only at that groove and about to nick off the high-spot and the other threads are only being touched at that V point and guide thru the other threads as you roll up behind the nick and knock it off.

It's more like it took the pitch of the [pointed threads] or the meeting roof points and shaved them down on the threads. And now the roof leaks [weak] and has no sharp bite or less surface contact is now the bite. The next example would be, you are walking thru a drainage tunnel and can walk thru it, but your head drags at the top as you walk. But when you shave that thread family down from you on back, everyone was walking thru the tunnel, not dragging the roof tip as 'more surface contact' is lost.

Now the full face against the archimedes principal is compromised:
X = The roof is lowered.
Y = The pitch is widened due to material removal of the speeding brush is not a wise choice IMO. However, my dick is so hard... How hard is it? I can nick that chip off from here. Wears me zipper?


* Last updated by: Hub on 3/22/2015 @ 8:26 AM *



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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VicThing


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 9:16 AM

Rook - I couldn't really remember TBH what to do. So I asked a mechanic and his recommendation was cleaning the old threadlocker off. However, I kind of remember in the way back doing what you're saying. It's probably best practice to clean them, 2nd best to redneck in.

Hubster - Yep I unfortunately don't have those, but I might look into getting a set (I knew about them after searching for how to clean threads). This topic was not about how or why to clean the bolt hole threads or issues. This thread is SPECIFICALLY about identifying and how to resolve bolts with damaged threads that will damage threads if it is installed.

YOu guys have to know the things I'm talking about. I can't believe none of you have ever had bits of aluminum thread pull out with a bolt? You have to get those of there, wire brush, use a small screw driver to chip away. Some people don't know this happens, this is mainly the target audience of this thread.


* Last updated by: VicThing on 3/22/2015 @ 9:16 AM *

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Rook


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 11:02 AM

I can't believe none of you have ever had bits of aluminum thread pull out with a bolt? You have to get those of there, wire brush, use a small screw driver to chip away.

I'm sure I occasionally find some particles in there. I thread my thumbnail down the bolt sometimes or thread it through a rag wrapped around it. Most of what I get is old locktite. I thought that was corrosion but I noticed it only reoccurs on the bolts I use LokTite on. That stuff looks white when it breaks so don't confuse it with aluminum corrosion. (sidenote: never noticed any corrosion between the steel bolts and aluminum parts. Steel supposedly reacts with aluminum but I haven't seen it on my bike)

The real thread killer is over-torquing. It's not hard to do this with aluminum. I pulled the threads right out of my engine on my old Yammi 100 back in middle school. The bolts just kept spinning but the thing wasn't getting any tighter. I removed the bolt and up popped a tiny coil spring of aluminum--there were the threads in my engine case. Be super careful torquing aluminum. The threads will stretch or if you go further, they just tear out. If it was a steel screw, guaranteed the screw threads are fine but the aluminum part now needs to be rethreaded.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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VicThing


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 12:32 PM

Rook...would you guys stop doubting me? Just because you didn't think about doesn't mean you have shit all over my thread.

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 1:42 PM

I hear a scattergun!!!!!!Run guys....run fer yer lives!

No Vic,none of us have EVER heard of shavings in a bolt hole.You won't get those if'n ya use bailing wire.Fuck!Where ya been?

Boy...come back from a really fun ride...I get to sit back and have some dessert;) Thanks again Vicster.You da man!


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/22/2015 @ 1:45 PM *

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VicThing


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 3:02 PM

Grn you're such a retard. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Maybe I should do both and neither at the same time!

We're not talking about bolt holes..... An entire thread that could be very helpful to people hijacked because you guys don't understand what my original post is even about. Now instead of talking about it, about asking about, about asking for a pic I've got 3 or 4 guys arguing with me about bolt holes...

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 4:00 PM

Hey,Master tech,you were the one who said "deformed from handling or shipping"...wanna 'splain THAT to all of us slow learners here?How the fuck does a bolt thread get 'deformed' when it's securely fastened into the threads in the hole?

Please...enlighten me,will ya?

I think I can tell everyone here how it's done,but I don't wanna let yer little 'secret' outta the bag.Does the word "hammer" ring a bell there?Hub mentioned 'pitch'...ya know,that kinda rhymes with....ahhh...nevermind.Got yer 8 bolts mixed up with yer Ebay hardware didja?


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/22/2015 @ 4:04 PM *

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Rook


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/22/15 7:17 PM

Rook...would you guys stop doubting me? Just because you didn't think about doesn't mean you have shit all over my thread.

I don't doubt you Vic. If you got a messed up bolt don't turn it, fix it. I'd probably replace the whole bolt if it didn't thread in smoothly. I haven't run into trouble with junk in my threads but I'm very cautious when I wrench. I make sure the threads drop in together and I DO NOT over-tighten them. I know I'm a "more is better" guy so I avoid this tendency when I tighten a bolt. FAr as I can tell, that has kept my 7 year old screws in good shape. Some of the fairing screws have been in and out 20 times. The place where I am most concerned about grit is dirty parts or greasy parts. I'd give those a good cleaning and run through with my finger nail.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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alg8er


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 12:34 AM

Grn; "deformed from handling or shipping"

I'm thinking Vic means loose bolts. Like when you buy a bag of bolts, some may get damaged threads in shipping or manufacturing. Personally, when I find a damaged bolt, I grab my sack-o-nuts, and spin one on. I try for a nice tight fit, give it a squirt of something slippery, and work that baby in and out till she's smooth. Once you're there it's such an awesome feeling.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 5:41 AM

WHEEEEE!!!

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zx14beast


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 7:31 AM

Damn you guys can sure brighten a Monday.... ROFLMFAO

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 10:28 AM

"Grn you're such a retard.I don't know if I should laugh or cry.Maybe I should do both and neither at the same time!"....spoken like a true schizoid.You've got my 'confidence' vote;)Maybe we should start callin ya "Sybil"..whattaya think?

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untamed


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 1:55 PM

I first got onto this forum for some advice, who knew it would turn out to be this entertaining.



Life begins at 40.......The fun starts at 240.
Now riding 2014 ohlins ZZR 1400, Z 750, GPZ1100ZX, ZZR1100, Hayabusa, GSXR1000, 2009 ZX14 special edition.

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VicThing


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 5:08 PM

lol grn thinks he's smart.

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hagrid


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 6:24 PM

I grab my sack-o-nuts, and spin one on. I try for a nice tight fit, give it a squirt of something slippery, and work that baby in and out till she's smooth. Once you're there it's such an awesome feeling.

Criminetly. That took me back to when I was 14.



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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jimmymac


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 6:44 PM

Criminetly. That took me back to when It was March 14th.

Fixed it for you.



Let's roll

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hagrid


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 6:51 PM

I'm gonna sic Danno's wife on you!



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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Rook


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 7:48 PM

You guys are messing up this thread. This thread is about threads. I'm going to your dog thread and talk about cooking spaghetti.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Grn14


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RE: Beware the thread killer
03/23/15 8:08 PM

"lol grn thinks he's smart"...it's RETARD...I'm too retarded to be smart.Stop insulting me.

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