Yeah, I have a RRW issue of the new R1 plain crank. What I would like to know is what bike Chris is talking about that retards the bike? He did not say what bike but anyone have back issues or know the bike(s) he means?

You want controversy, I just want to make sure I stir up the pot is get the facts not 1/2Truths. Right now, I have a 14 that sets codes and if Chris is thinking about some 5th gear retard scenario, how can you trust what you read is the tech runs in the absolute. So it is either running retard or my 14 runs redundant is same-same ignition tell me my ass is lying.

Is it that subtle the retard? Show me that code page of that bike. The R1 has any button feature wired like I just set the 14 with 4 settings? Like redundant they set the same ignition is safe to beat the shit out of it is watch my subthrottle between my legs watch it swing I want an answer wannn wannn wannn crying like a baby is give me a tech sheet make me look the fool is my assdyno is at least I have a correct answer is my ass.

How's it going guys? Waves is I told chew sow is gonna back it up is call the ball. I need data is confirm is all I am asking for is back up the data is you printed it and said, "RETARD" [like yours truly]. Now prove the step it retards is show me the code page, (Chris)<Kind of asking out of the blue, Mr. New Daddy.

OK, I'll take the bait,

I don't have much in the way of hard data, OK I got nothin'. But I've known a couple of mechanics that I respect and trust. Both claim that new modern big Jap bikes consistently have their ignition timing retarded (in relative terms) in 1st gear compared to other gears. This is supposedly done to make the bikes safer at low speeds, therefore reducing the number of self induced injuries at the hands of learners. In my state of Aus, a 1/2 day training session and a wad of cash gets a 1st time rider an unrestricted licence and ticket to the emergency wing at the local hospital (via the Kawa bike shop!)

The only hard evidence I have is an uncalibrated anusometer reading from an 03 GSX1400 and a 98 R1.

My mech hard wired the gear signal of the GSX1400 so that it was always sending 6th. before, 1st gear takeoff was like the ZX14, docile. accidental takeoff in 2nd gear was stronger than in 1st! After the change, it lengthened my arms and required constant clutch moderation, just the way I like it. Now this does not indicate the change made to the otto fundamentals, just changed the input to the ECU (I hear ya, Hub!) so read on

Also, after a tuning mishap, my R1 want all docile in 1st gear. We adjusted idel mixtures, needle clips, exup advance without success. Then we turned our attention to the ignition. Diagnosis, the ignition plate was not put back in exactly the same place (the locating hole allows a little rotation +/- 2deg'ish). a little relieving and refitting allowed the plate to fitted and advanced slightly, no other changes. It was like magic, crisp throttle, almost no delay between twist and revs (there used to be a slight delay, maybe 0.2s? [yes this is just a guess]). This change was isolated to ignition and advancing it seemed to fix the 'problem'. It now pulls harder than a teenager.

This also reinforces my experiences with old cars in early 80s (ford escort, dizzy points, coils etc) these were the good oil daze with timing lights 'nstuff. Is there a way of measuring the actual timing of the ZX?

So these experiences make me think that if the ignition is not at the correct advance (BTDC) then the engine is a bis soppy and weak, especially if it is insufficiently advanced (purposely not calling it retarded as it may still be a little bit advanced but just not enough) And then when the ignition is advanced a little more, hey presto, the anussometer registers a significant jump in jump from the line in traffic.

The anussometer reading suggests that this pharking big engine has its ignition insufficiently advanced.

Hub, I await you quips and rocky insights with an Tissi Payshun!

Russty

Russty, I think I wiped out your compliment on another thread. I ate your post, and sorry bout that plus, I appreciate the words given. Here is WOT I think about the air/advance scenario:

It is none other than air-retard. It has nothing to do with ignition. See,in a computer as well as they understood it back in the carb/advancer spring days, a car engine ends the retard at a certain rpm. This is for slow idle because the time happens slow and loopy. The suck takes longer. To move the air takes longer. So at start-up, you use retard or the time to fire fuel is timed.

say at a certain rpm, the advance locks and she is at so many degrees because you have a piston that hangs at TDC while the degrees tick off, waiting for the crank to move to the other side. The degrees change via stroke difference. So say you see 28° on one cc bike/car, but the dwell time or degree fire is more the rod waiting to move from center>over to meet the power stroke now.

See, at about or exactly 10° ATDC compression, that gas is all burned up in time as it takes so much time to burn in degrees she is heading down full pressure @ 10° ATDC. So for computer speak, and way back when is when you could move the advance, notice it was out of spec for that 10 degrees?

In a car, the advance is ratcheted back when the A/C pump comes on and off. This throws a load on the car, so that A/C is tied to the internal advancer. So, does the advancer play retard in the computer? Not where my asspucker is sitting. I feel the same performance without the subs in place with just that one code. I have zero feel of an advance knocking do any speed at 5 hacks that disable the GPS.

Once the bike/car codes, it goes slightly safe rich. How rich and how many seconds is that analog to code in retard is any one's guess. But for sure and without a doubt, the air jacking of the sub or the air cleaner cage is but 2 designs that asspucker the pro's as well as the average guess ear. You have to read the manual for one. You have to follow the design is your second clue. You asspucker to quantify that tiny lag you feel.

Like I said, the 14 is count the sub speed are 2 of 5 bikes I present as air lag gears as opposed to your experience/Chris-is asspucking is not so much ignition but plain old air speed as the new '09 Yam R1 has an asspucker mode switch hooked up to the sub opening. The 1999 Suzuki Busa hack everyone thought was Ivan's retard ignition, but here we again quantify how the Suz 1000 has the air box mode switch for the same design as the Busa back in 1999 is 10 years to date of air-lag or air-retard I present is to correct Road Racing Word up is their "& Motorcycle Technology" a bit to be questioned on my end is prove me wrong X's-5 Motorcycles that code open sub or mode switch air demand via air box switching or sub-switching.

I present Air pucker phacks, not ignition retard ass inn: Do you hear the advance fall in the forest? Nope, and I was on the other side of the puddle is yanked my ear out just to make sure.

* Last updated by: Hub on 2/20/2009 @ 9:32 AM *

Thanks Hub,

I'm listening, I understand the idle discussion. My summary is that fuel and air burns at a constant rate under similar conditions, so to align the pressure from the explosion with the ideal crank position, you must time the spark correctly.

But help me out here, I can't let go of the R1 experience. Now this is the 1998 model, no FI, no subs, the only airflow control is the exup which we didn't alter. When we did, it made little diffeence. We advanced the ignition plate only and the difference was dramatic. I can't explain this with reference to air flow...

Also, Did you read my earlier comment in another thread where I wonder if an explanation of teh rider experience of a 14 with subs in and subs out is a little like the difference I experienced between CV and flat-slide carbs in the 80s?

Thanks
Russty
PS it's a pleasure to find someone who understands this material and is willing to engage in an intelligent discussion on the topic without tying to push a product. Thanks a heap Hub!

My summary is that fuel and air burns at a constant rate under similar conditions, so to align the pressure from the explosion with the ideal crank position, you must time the spark correctly. Exactly. Both references I've used were from the old HEI V-8 days, and the modern FI fires at about TDC she fires and then is done about 10° or the factories aim for that timed constant (pressure is set) say at about or right on 10° for fuel injection as well.

... no subs, the only airflow control is the exup which we didn't alter. I do not know the product, so I am going to take an air-guess [not an advance performance lag gear scenario] is remain constant as in how I would use or see how the factories use the old stand-bye air flow. How about for every action there is a reaction. So, say I would have to see the code page to read how many trip hacks you need to unload who is locking out the air speed? Say the exup is to the exhaust sub as the air cleaner flapper is the action/reaction of flutter my air slow, so as to, "blend doors" as the exup blends with the Suzuki type air cleaner sub-design might be your R1. Get me that manual, I will get you that answer.
Now, do you see air holes being exploited as far as your seat to throttle is sadasslow? The exhaust flapper could have half your answer. No way would you flap and push the air closed with the throttle. It is more you throttle up and the exup's the opening.

When we did, it made little diffeence. We advanced the ignition plate only and the difference was dramatic. I can't explain this with reference to air flow... Again, I would have to see the ignition system and if you say it was forced slotted as a mod, or it had factory adjustments, then they shut the time the spark fires via degrees. If not, then the advance adjust set a code you do not see what is wired to the ignition advance. I doubt it works like that advanced wise. And is a fail-safe to opening up the sub flapper being how a dramatic difference it makes. If we rode an '06 14 0sub lag gear, she's drag her ass like you did as if you did not touch the Yami ignition.

Also, Did you read my earlier comment in another thread where I wonder if an explanation of teh rider experience of a 14 with subs in and subs out is a little like the difference I experienced between CV and flat-slide carbs in the 80s? Well no and yes. Yes, the CV is a beauty of a non lag gear. It moves as quick as the later 14 model. Flat slide vs. CV? That will be a problem for me to give you that one for one carb scenario. But I can say this. If I had my choice, I would for that era, run smooth bores. I did use smooth bores and was found cheating, lost pointshit got caught! WOT a difference. Even the CV's that I knew were not as smooth as the cheater set I used.
I would say, yes, the smooth bores got up and romped! CV would be a stock '08 with subs in as opposed to the smooth bores with subs out.