Thanks for the replies.
I'm checking out some of the past discussions on cam chain rattle and some say it's the chains fault. Get a chain from Shnitz (sp?)and no more rattle. I can see a chain that's old getting kinks in it but a chain with 9K on it and others have had less miles than that? I have no problem getting a better chain. I'd lke to wait until the 15K check and do this when I check the valves, replace plugs, etc. Any harm in waiting?
Also, a lot of the discussions here go back 2 and 3 years. I know we've learned a few tricks here and there and I wonder if Kaw' has made a better CCT by now and it will work with older models? Thanks for any help.

I would say...your best 'trick' would be...get the APE tensioner.I've been running mine now for 4 years without any drama.Never had to adjust.I'm at 50,000+ miles right now.ZERO cam chain noise.If it were me,I'd avoid a "special chain"...IF it were me.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 9/18/2011 @ 2:27 AM *

agree with blue, fit the ape, mine start to sound like a chain saw, back to happiness again
B-A

Just to add to the discussion. I have 13k on the bike. I have quite a bit of chain noise with a APE on mine. It is correctly adjusted. I paid to have to dealer adjust it after i did it. No change at all in noise after they adjusted it. The whine drives me nutz. But replacing the chain is a good thought and i might do it sometime. Thanks for the info.

* Last updated by: viperkillertt on 9/18/2011 @ 12:55 PM *

I have quite a bit of chain noise with a APE on mine

There are 3-amigo setups:

1. Blue's Way; "I get mine running and when the noise stops, I locker down." << I'm goofing wit you, blue.

2. Rook's Way; "I go buy book and that says that same old 15° past TDC so the valve springs are more stationary, where it won't tilt back or rock forward." << It's more goof on Rook. More like how the 3-amigos pan out.

3. Hub's Way; "I go right to the cover like Rook has to move the crank with a 17mm wrench. I don't care where that crank is positioned once the cover is off. I load the crank by moving it slightly to feel the compression drop and then feels free until the compression builds on another cylinder. Once I am past that free drop or say it's easy to spin and then gets hard again; I want to stop at the hard again and stop. I then hand spin the APE's shaft against the tensioner slipper arm. I never back off of the wrench either unloading or moving it forward. I want a static load on the chain. Once I feel the screw bottom to the slipper, my fingers will move the screw less than a 1/8th of a turn... LESS THAN a 1/8th of a turn moving it tighter. I want to kiss it and that is it, tighten nut."

That should stop the singing for #3. Any other try is you are on your own, pal! No one listens to turtle and it ain't me problem to solve. All your call... Warranty... HA!

* Last updated by: Hub on 9/18/2011 @ 7:28 AM *

blue, I checked out the APE installation info. Engine OFF, you just turn in the CCT until you feel contact then back off a 1/4 turn. That what you did? Seems almost too simple. There's a couple methods out there and I'm not sure which is best. I suppose the APE method should work well or they wouldn't say it.
Just another thought and this would be most important to the long term owner. I assume (with a manual CCT) you determine future adjustment by the noise increasing. Seems like you could get used to a very gradual increase in noise and not adjust it as soon as needed. Know what I mean? Some things happening at a gradual pace can go unnoticed because the change can be so subtle. Kinda like suspension issues. You don't always notice but if you installed new suspension you might be amazed how bad things had become.
With a manual CCT you rely on your ears. A gradual noise increase could fool you and you end up with accelerated wear. Do I have a legit' point or is it really a non-issue and going by ear should work fine for the long term owner (or any owner).
Right now I'm open to a manual CCT. I don't know near enough about the modded CCT's to get one and I see no permanent fix to installing new OEM parts or even an aftermarket chain.

* Last updated by: KAK on 9/18/2011 @ 10:49 AM *

You've got a valid point.For sure.In my case anyway...I know what cam chain noise sounds like.I always listen to my bike warm up before I take off.Just to be sure there aren't any odd sounds.That sound is IMO very clear....clacking.Metallic.

I'd say if you're worried you might not get it right,you can take a pencil,or chopstick,or something along those lines.Remove the factory tensioner(ONLY IF YOU'RE COMMITTED TO INSTALLING THE APE!!!!!)gently slide it in till you feel it contact the shoe(THIS can be kinda tricky unless you push a few times and get the feel for when the dowel(pencil,whatever) is actually contacting the shoe...it does move inward.I think you may be able to get a flashlight and actually see when the dowel is touching the shoe if you're not sure about how far in it is.You can look in there without the dowel and see approximately where it is,and how far.Mark the pencil or whatever at the flush point of the engine side of the mount area.Take your manual tensioner.Make sure you have the o-ring on it.Adjust the adjuster bolt inward until you have the same length as your pencil(dowel)mark.You now use the 'mark' to measure the 'engine side' of the tensioner mounting plate.That will preset the tensioner so the chain won't be slapping around in there when you first start your bike.Snug down the mounting plate.With your right hand,get ready to start your bike.With your left hand,hold the adjuster bolt and get ready to turn.Bike in neutral.Start engine.IMMEDIATELY listen for clacking.IF it's clacking,turn adjuster clockwise.ONLY till it stops.IF you have NO CLACKING at first start,turn adjuster counterclockwise until you get a SMALL amount of noise.You'll hear it.NOW....begin to turn clockwise again until the sound stops.JUST TILL IT STOPS...no further.Turn your baby off.Now...back on.Any noise?If not,you can turn the adjuster back out slightly.NOT MUCH.Restart.No NOISE?....that's it.IF you hear any noise after backing the bolt out a teensy bit(at startup or running)....adjust slightly back in...till it stops.Yer done.Tighten the lock nut,do not allow the adjuster bolt to turn with the locknut!Tighten down the mount bolts.That's it.Check for oil seepage at the mount plate.There should be NO OIL anywhere.Wipe down and recheck after running some.It should be fine.I would NOT recommend using any type of threadlocker on the adjuster bolt...or the locknut.

I know there's been mucho technical discussions here about cam chain position,where this is at,where that's at....how this needs to be this way or whatever.S'all good...each to his own.My opinion is....you have slack somewhere along that chain.It may or may not change positions with the rotation of the cam gears.The factory designed the stock tensioner to be placed right where it is.So apparently,they know that tensioning that part of the chain...regardless of WHERE the slack actually may be along the run..is the best way to stop cam chain slap.The manual tensioner is ONLY 'tightening' the chain as it begins to get slack in it .It is not pushing on an unslacked shoe.Unlike the factory tensioner...which is always applying pressure to the shoe.Anyway...I can't envision ANY chain damage or shoe damage if you adjust the manual one correctly.I took the factory one out....felt the spring tension in it.There wasn't very much tension in that piston.So IMO it's only lightly putting pressure on the shoe as the slack comes around that part of the run,or whenever it gets slack.Which is exactly what the manual one does...without the continuous pressure on the shoe.There's only a specific amount of travel in the chain to be able to hit and slap in there.The manual tensioner just keeps that amount from happening.Anything under that amount...it doesn't affect.Which IMO is exactly why it doesn't ever need to be adjusted once set.Mine never has...and I've got 50,000 miles on her.

Here's a question for anyone here....does anyone KNOW where the chain is hitting...and WHAT it's hitting when it clacks?The noise is NOT coming from the chain hitting and pushing on the shoes in there.Does anyone think it MAY be possible that the engine failures we've seen in a couple of cases MIGHT be related to a chain hitting a part of the engine internal wall and creating a weak spot?Just wondering.Isn't that #3 'bearing' right about where the cam chain is positioned...inside the case or whatever?In line with that bearing?If you look at the 'failure' pics...the FRONT portion of the motor...at the right hand side there...that's where the 'holes' seem to be at.Anyone look to see WHERE that front shoe is located in the motor?There have been several instances of 'flakes' in people's oil.After the initial break-in.WAY after the initial break-in.I don't think you should be seeing metal flakes after your motor has been run in.I don't get any.And I wonder IF the guys seeing metal flakes have the factory tensioner in there?Co incidence?IDK.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 9/18/2011 @ 11:52 AM *

I have quite a bit of chain noise with a APE on mine"-Viper Killer

Hub-"Sounds tight. I would not warranty your bike. Sore wee. Who set it up, you? No one here cares if you screwed up. That's part of the fun working on bike. And Kawi loves you for it too. Parts waiting!

Nope, not tight. I was concerned, so i took it to The dealer and paid them to double check it. They adjusted it, but they said it was pretty much right on. NO CHANGE IN NOISE AT ALL!
So it is not related to the APE or the CCT. It is a noisy chain.

* Last updated by: viperkillertt on 9/18/2011 @ 12:54 PM *

I got the good one I start the bike and no more than 2 Mississippi’s and quiet as can be and that’s on a cold day maybe it’s the extra pressure down here at sea level.

DogoZX, anyone...I'd like to know more about the ZX12's modified CCT.
Sounds good and I appreciate the pic's. But how was the spring size determined, etc, so you know it's applying the right amount of pressure? And you say it adjusts itself? What convinced you this is a good fix? Thanks

Sry Kak... just saw your question.

I'm not sure how the spring size was determined... but I'm pretty sure it's the same spring that is used for the 12r. Bill is good about answering q's if you send him a PM.
Carpenter has been including modded 12r CCT's with their engine packages for years and I've not heard of one failing... that's what convinced me. Also, Bill said he'd seen a lot of damaged motors from improperly adjusted APE's. Why risk it?

I think the noise is caused from the cams snapping back and forth against a loose cam chain, hence the rattle. As each cam is loaded/ unloaded it fights against the chain. Any slack means noise.

Mad

Okay....thanks Mad.I really couldn't see how the chain could be so loose as to hit the inside of the engine case...however...there IS a spot right up by the top end inside at the front where the cam gear/chain are VERY VERY close to the inside edge of whatever part of the engine that is in the diagram.VERY CLOSE tolerance right there.I guess it COULD rub on that spot maybe?IF it was 'loose' at startup?IDK.Looked awful close to me anyway.

ENGINE TOP END...pg 5-19 service manual.I'm assuming that's an accurate diagram for the actual parts...and tolerances.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 9/20/2011 @ 2:26 PM *

blue, Dogo, thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know if the CCT out of a 2012 ZX14r will fit the 2006-2011 ZX14? If that won't work, I'll replace mone with a modded ZX12 CCT.

No, it won't fit. Totally new design. The trick is to pull the ratchet wire into itself so it fits tighter around the toothed gear shaft. That cures the initial chatter upon start up. Ask me how I know? I know it's been quiet ever since I experimented with the wire via, looking at its design.